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Old 01-09-2017, 08:22 PM
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Default SMF or DMF

I had replaced my clutch to Valeo (#52405615) single mass flywheel conversion kit 4 years ago and had since then put 40K miles on it. The throwout bearing failed around 35K miles which is way too early for the clutch to go. Car is stock, no mods, daily driver, and have never been raced.

The car is still drivable, but when it's idle there's this clicking sound coming from the front driver side wheel well. When the clutch is pushed in, I can immediately hear the mechanical whirring sound; the sound goes away soon as the clutch is released. I had the shop listen to it and they were pretty positive that the throwout bearing is failing. They suggested to take the transmission out to replace the throwout bearing, which would cost me $250 for the part and $500 for labor.

Since the labor is the same with replacing the whole clutch, I'm thinking about switching back to DMF. My original clutch lasted 120K miles, compared to the 40K miles I got on SMF. I would like to ask those experienced experts, what are your thoughts on the SMF vs. DMF?

Thanks.
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Old 01-09-2017, 09:00 PM
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Which transmission? 02j 5 speed? Is the car stock or modded with higher horsepower?


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Old 01-10-2017, 12:44 AM
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It's a turbo s, 02M, 6 speed. Car is stock, no mods. The latest thing I did was put on Dieselgeek cable end bushings, which I don't think have any negative impact on the throwout bearing. Thanks.
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Old 01-10-2017, 01:48 AM
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Ok, I have the same car and just went through, what you currently are going through with a SMF conversion clutch setup. In my case, I went with a SouthBend clutch and I went back to the stock clutch, after it failed.

Basically, there is no "perfect" clutch; much depends on what your personal needs are and if you need, any improvement in clutch performance.

As your experienced, when you go with a SMF you take away; much of the dampening benefits that the DMF provides. They are noisier and as the clutch wears; the noise, only gets louder, over time. Many people, that modify their cars; need a better performing clutch and are willing to put up with the added noise. This noise is particularly loud; on the 02M transmission, because of the way it is designed, compared to the 5 speed 02J.

Discuss, what your long term goals are and if you see yourself increasing the performance levels on your car. This pretty much forces the issue with a different clutch; another option, is upgrading the clutch but keeping the DMF.

In my case, the clutch failed and I needed a replacement asap; many aftermarket clutches, have problems with noise and clutch engagement issues. At that point, I went back to a stock Luk clutch setup and I have been going fine, ever since. In the past, the stock clutch with the DMF; was very expensive but prices, have come down significantly. You can read about my clutch and shifter fork failure issues here: Turbo S; just lost 1st/2nd in my 02M, 6 speed!

I bought my Luk "rep set" clutch and dmf; from amazon with free shipping, for under $400. It was identical to my original clutch and all the original parts, were stamped with the Luk logos. This is the same clutch; that VW dealers sell, for much more.

Luk part #: 02-040

Clutch Kit 1 1.8L; 1781cc; 6-Speed LuK Global Number 624 3564 330; Slave Cylinder included; Refer to LB163 regarding internal slave cylinders; Engine code is stamped on the engine cylinder head.

Luk Part #: DMF032

Clutch Flywheel 1 1.8L; 1781cc; 6-Speed LuK Global Number 415 0111 100; Engine code is stamped on the engine cylinder head.

One thing, that is crucial, when replacing the slave clyinder; is to NOT bench bleed it or you can damage it and cause a failure. It maybe possible; that your slave was damaged when installed and they is why it failed prematurely. I use a Phoenix system reverse bleeder; to bleed the clutch hydraluics.

Let us know, what your needs are and if you see yourself needing a performance clutch, in the future.
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Old 01-10-2017, 02:58 PM
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I must be one of the lucky ones cause my car still has the original clutch/master/slave cylinder. 208k miles.
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Old 01-10-2017, 04:39 PM
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Not as long, but 155k on the original clutch in my GTI (also a 6-speed). And I've been Stage 2 tuned for the last 25k, and I don't drive easy!

Swapped in a SMF into my husband's Jetta TDI when we did the transmission swap and it lasted the 80k we had the car with no issues.
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Old 01-10-2017, 04:48 PM
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Much thanks for the thorough response, billymade.

I have to agree with you on the noise level of the SMF clutch kit, they were never perfect and chatter started on day one and never went away. The clutch engagement was fine for the first year but then it started to get difficult to put it in gear, especially 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear being the worst. Based on my experience, I would rather go back to DMF than to put up with premature failure on the SMF clutch; besides, cost has dropped dramatically on those DMF clutch kit, some are cheaper than Valeo SMF conversion kit.

As for long term performance, I will keep it stock for a few more years and will probably consider a stage 1 tune.

Here are the parts I'm interested in from FCP EURO, linked below:

LUK 06A198141C/6243564330
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/vw-...-quattro-02040

Sachs 06A198141C/K7028702
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/vw-...attro-k7028702

What are your thoughts on these two kits? It looks like both kits come with slave cylinder.
I did have slave cylinder and master cylinder replaced 4 years ago but I think it's probably good practice to replace them again.

I'll make sure the shop doesn't bench bleed the slave cylinder this time, I suspect that they probably did years ago.

Thanks.
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:05 PM
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Default SMF or DMF

From what i can tell; the luk dmf is the same luk version i linked to but the clutch is a sachs. The sachs is more expensive: the luk is cheaper and is identical to my original one. Some think the Sachs are better but if the luk is identical, as the original and cheaper, i decided to save money, went with the luk.


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Old 01-10-2017, 07:03 PM
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I will go with the LUK set since it's the same as the OEM parts. Besides the clutch kit, is there anything I need to get? Like master cylinder and flywheel? Thanks.
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Old 01-10-2017, 07:54 PM
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Default SMF or DMF

The luk rep set clutch kit, dual mass flywheel and new flywheel bolts, should do it. Since you will have the trans out; i would seriously consider beefing up the shifter forks and since your in there, adding ARP studs/bolts to the differential ring gear, which is also riveted together as well. My fork let go; as they are held together with rivets and eventually they shear off (i added bolts and welded them or you can add full steel welded forks). Doing these improvements, is a good way to eliminate a potential failure in the future and that way, you wouldn't have pull the trans again.
You can read my thread, to see what is involved in beefing up the forks and differential (removing all the rivets from the trans internals).

http://newbeetle.org/forums/transmis...ge=1&_k=dxl5m5


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Old 01-10-2017, 08:34 PM
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Thanks for the recommendation, I'll make sure to gather all the parts needed for the job. By the way, should I still replace master cylinder?

As for beefing up the shifter forks, the mentioned full steel welded forks, is it something that needs to be custom made like how you improvised the old shifter forks or it's something aftermarket? I'm trying to figure out the cost as it's quite hefty just to get a clutch job done.

Thanks.
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Old 01-10-2017, 10:37 PM
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The steel forks are from a later model vw transmission; the ones that came in the early 02m's like the "ERR" code, are brass and steel shafts. It is possible to break the brass portion but after bolting/welding mine, i haven't yet. I suppose it depends on how rough you shift but the steel welded forks are much stronger. There was a reason, that vw switched to the steel type fork; it all depends if you are willing to spend the money.

Transmission parts can get expensive:

https://www.google.com/search?client...k1.zqBYzCU27LE

Drilling, tapping, bolting and welding the original brass/steel forks, didn't cost much and this is something i did myself. Then I had a welding shop, finish them by welding, to stop any possible movement of the bolts and make them as strong as possible. aside from that route; you could go with the steel forks. I think with the purchase of the drill bit, threaded tap, 12.9 hex head bolts and the welding fee; it all came to under $50.

If you decided to drill out and upgrade the differential bolts; the drill bit and ARP bolts was about $100 or so.

ARP LSD Bolt Kit 02M/02Q Transmission (6 Speed)

https://www.google.com/search?client...k1.yuZM6OGYY2I

Because of my fork failure; I found these inexpensive upgrades to bring peace of mind and were a cost effective solution, by removing all failure prone rivet fasteners, from the transmission.

So for $150 or so; you could beef up your trans and stop a potential future failure that could destroy your transmission or at the bare minimum, reauire another trans pull, to fix it.

As for new master cylinder; at this point, (considering age, mileage) it couldn't hurt and that way both your slave and master would be new.

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Last edited by billymade; 01-14-2017 at 09:19 PM..
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Old 01-11-2017, 07:00 PM
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Normally I don't put too much force while shifting unless it doesn't go smoothly, which happens occasionally. But I like the idea of beefing it up to prevent any damage in the future.

Since I'm going to have my mechanic do the job, purchasing a new set of shifter fork would probably be cheaper than to have them rebuild the old forks. As for ARP LSD bolt kit, is it still needed after buying a new set of shifter fork?

I've checked the link you provided but there seems to be a lot of aftermarket vendors selling the new steel type of fork. Do you have any recommendation on which brand to get?

Thanks.
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Old 01-11-2017, 07:26 PM
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Default SMF or DMF

The steel shift forks are made by Volkswagen; so, whoever has the cheapest prices or your local vw dealer could be a source for them.

As for the rivets, they are separate from the forks, they specifically secure the differential to the ring gear, which is constantly under stress when the car is in gear and if they fail, would cause a catastrophic failure and destroy the whole transmission (cracked case, damaged differential, gears, etc).

You can read about and look at the photos; of the results of other vw transmission rivet failures, it isn't pretty and can require a total replacement. After seeing and reading about these failures; i figured, it was cheap insurance, to go ahead and replace them.

https://www.google.com/search?q=vw+d...&client=safari

Historically, this has been a failure point; even VW themselves, sell their own bolt kit for the differential, if vw sells it, that tells you something (they are aware of the problem). I sourced mine from ARP, as it was said; they are better quality and cost less. ARP supplies fasteners to the top racing teams and even top fuel dragsters; their quality is well known.

Here are some videos; showing and discussing the forks and diff bolt installation: (note they are also installing a limited slip differential):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y5Eho8tM1lc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QPpEjR_p1iQ

There is a extra issue with the steel forks; I'll fill in the details, later today when i get home, thanks.


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Last edited by billymade; 01-11-2017 at 07:59 PM..
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Old 01-12-2017, 04:28 AM
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Another issue: when going with steel forks, they do NOT have the 5th/6th fork in welded steel. So, you could remove the rivet from your original one; add bolts, weld it and make it stronger. Another company, makes a add on to the stock 5th/6th fork and it adds strength to it as well.

02M / 02Q 5th - 6th Selector Fork Reinforcement Kit

Darkside Developments - 02M / 02Q Selector Fork Reinforcement Kit

After that, one downside of the steel forks; is that they use a plastic part, on the sliders that make contact with the shifter hub. Eventually, these wear and fall off; causing play in the shifting fork, shifting problems and that would require disassembly of the trans, to address that issue
.
Thankfully, the aftermarket, has made some bronze sliders; to replace the plastic and that solves that issues. In this case, you get the best of both worlds; strength of the steel forks and the original material, that makes contact with the gear hubs with superior wear characteristics to the plastic.

Bronze Sliders for 02M & 02Q Steel Selector / Shifter Forks

Darkside Developments - 02M & 02Q Steel Selector / Shifter Fork Bronze Sliders
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Old 01-12-2017, 04:48 PM
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It seems like there are more parts involved than I expected. Ultimately I still need to have the shop reinforce the 5th-6th fork. May I ask how long it took you to re-build all 3 forks and swap out differential bolts with ARP bold kit?

If I go with the Darkside Developments 02M fork reinforcement kit, does it still require drilling and welding to the old fork? Are those bronze sliders for all shifter forks?

I found a VW dealer selling the forks for fairly cheap price, compared to other vendors, linked below:

Selector shaft with selec.fork for Volkswagen (VW). #02M311549Q

Selector shaft with selec.fork made by Volkswagen VW. #02M311559P

It gets expensive to do all the modification on the old unit and the list gets longer. I'm trying to figure out all the parts I need and the cost on labor before taking my car in. It sure is going to be an expensive work.
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Old 01-13-2017, 12:35 AM
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I would think; each fork has to have the rivets drilled out, tapped for threads, a bolt installed and the bolts ground down. Each i think, could be done in under 30 minutes and then i had a welding shop, do the spot welding. It didn't take them more than 15-20 minutes and they charged their minimum charge of $20.

Drilling out the heads of all the rivets from the differential ring gear,'knocking them out and installing the bolts, torquing them to spec, could take 2 or 3 hours at the most.
Getting things done, much depends on your pace and how aggressive you are in getting things done. I wasn't in a hurry and took my time; i was was also installing. Wavetrac limited slip differential and pressing on the new diff bearings, so that took longer.

From what i can tell with darkside development. 5th/6th fork reinforcement kit; you would need to dtillout the rivet but the kit seems to be bolt together. I would contact DD and see what they say, i have not installed that kit; i just drilled, tapped and welded mine, as the kit was not available at the time.

The sliders, would just be required for the two steel forks; easily installed, after the plastic old ones are popped off. I would confirm with DD ; how many you would need for your forks.

Labor is the main cost; that is why i did as much as i could myself but if the car is in the shop, that probably is not a option. By the time you factor in rebuilding and welding all the forks; it could be similar or more than then the cost of the steel ones! Cost always has to be weighed against longevity and potential failure in the future; which typically will cost you more in the long run, if you cut corners. Be smart, do things right the first time and you will have less breakdowns, failed parts and future repair bills.

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Last edited by billymade; 01-14-2017 at 09:25 PM..
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:50 PM
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I called the shop to get an estimate on the labor cost for a clutch job. It will be about $570, a 6 hour job including dropping the transmission. They will do some inspection on the shift forks and go from there. Unfortunately, they don't do modification on the shift forks and I'll have to take it to a transmission shop in town. I'll keep you posted. Thanks.
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Old 01-14-2017, 08:40 PM
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Well, you might talk with trans shop and get a estimate for having them do everything. They may give a better price and could be less hassle ;dragging the trans around and if (god forbid) anything went wrong; you could end up having two shops, blame each other and be stuck with a messed up repair scenario. I think it is best, to keep everything; under one roof and the responsibility of completing the repair successfully/satisfactorily with one shop. Doing the fork swap/reinforcement and the diff bolt installation; is not hard work but working on a vw trans, might scare away your average mechanic.


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Old 03-06-2017, 06:47 PM
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It's been a month and I finally got my clutch replaced. I didn't have the shop check the shift forks since they refused to open the transmission. One thing I've noticed is that shifting is much smoother and car runs better now. It's definitely quieter as well. DMF is the way to go. Lesson learned.
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