most effective intake?

[Too Cold NB1.8T]

A dryer duct is over 4 inches I.D. but even an 1/8" increase in diameter will make a considerable difference here.

You are correct though, a filter that can only pull from the front for whatever reason, is likely to create a large restriction in peak air flow and air volume.

For this application, an open air exposed large cone style filter that pulls from a 360 degree circumfrence will be the least restrictive, that same filter with the added capability of being able to pull from the front as well (K&N Xtreme) is even less restrictive and capable of inducting even greater volumes of air.

[Billsbug]

Yeah, I guess this was made with intention of use on OEM turbo's and, at a certain hp point, it would start to yield negative returns.

It seems to work really well with my measly 200hp , so, at least for now, I'm happy with it. I e-mailed tmtuning about this today and I'll post up their response.

[Billsbug]

John@EurojetRacing to localcali (Josh), who just had a BT install, which he was estimating at 400whp.

"Comes down to surface area and filter substrate. For the numbers you want Josh, I would bet your gonna need at least a 6-8" base to 6" tip, as long as you can fit it in there. Stick to a K&N, the other gauze element filters don't have the wire mesh screen to hold the substrate intact, and keep it from deforming at high flow."

[mat3833]

wow, i missed alot while my computer was craped out... ok, well one more question. would a K&N xtreme on the maf with a velocity stack, and then a dryer duct going out of the engine bay be better than sealing the filter? my thought (severly revised at this point) is that hot air going in doesnt really mater that much. but if at speed i can bring cooler forced air into the engine compartment it would not only help displace engine bay heat, but add a bit of cooler air to the intake charge(thanks to the K&N's filter style).

Matt

[zeusenergy]

Originally Posted by mat3833

wow, i missed alot while my computer was craped out... ok, well one more question. would a K&N xtreme on the maf with a velocity stack, and then a dryer duct going out of the engine bay be better than sealing the filter? my thought (severly revised at this point) is that hot air going in doesnt really mater that much. but if at speed i can bring cooler forced air into the engine compartment it would not only help displace engine bay heat, but add a bit of cooler air to the intake charge(thanks to the K&N's filter style).

Matt

I dunno Matt. Most ppl in here and on the 'Tex swear that a CAI does nothing for power, and may even REDUCE output with a closed system going to the bumper opening. Try out an open cone and see what you think first, you can add a hose later and just "aim" it at the filter area.

[Too Cold NB1.8T]

A big part of the problem with the "most people" that you are referring to is that just like with any other single power related upgrade or modification, they typically attribute that single upgrade/modification with the outcome.

There are a lot more areas and aspects that must be considered involving the entire drivetrain and vehicle before an intelligent and accurate conclusion can be reached, the final results are achieved by way of far more than that of just a single upgrade or modification, this is of a collective nature.

The same problem exists with tools such as a dyno, "most people" forget that a dyno is just one of many tools used to enhance a vehicle, it's not at all the almighty tool, it's just another tool among many, no more/no less important than any other tool.

"Most people" tend to lay way too much importance in one area (Tunnel vision), when they should be removing the blinders to allow for an infinitely more open and realistic perspective.

Each vehicle and it's make-up are different which means that their reaction to like parts upgrades may also be different, this could be the result of countless variations and anomalies.

[Fowvay]

In most cases a true "CAI" is most effective on a naturally aspirated engine and pretty pointless on a turbocharged motor where quantity is more important that quality. I'm sure it's been covered in here adnausium but just in case it hasn't I'd like to point out that the turbo super heats the air to the point that any advantages created by the CAI are vaporized. It is far more critical to focus on cooling that air AFTER it has passed through the turbo than before.

I am running the largest open filter I could stuff under my hood so I could have the greatest surface area. I did not test it before being chipped or doing exhaust work but I saw a fairly substantial gain of 7+hp and 15lb/ft proving that there indeed was a restriction with the factory setup when turning up the boost and removing exhaust restrictions.

[Too Cold NB1.8T]

Bravo!!!!

And there you have it...

[mat3833]

haha, whats the largest K&N Xtreeme you can fit?

Matt

[zeusenergy]

Originally Posted by Too Cold NB1.8T

A big part of the problem with the "most people" that you are referring to is that just like with any other single power related upgrade or modification, they typically attribute that single upgrade/modification with the outcome.

There are a lot more areas and aspects that must be considered involving the entire drivetrain and vehicle before an intelligent and accurate conclusion can be reached, the final results are achieved by way of far more than that of just a single upgrade or modification, this is of a collective nature.

The same problem exists with tools such as a dyno, "most people" forget that a dyno is just one of many tools used to enhance a vehicle, it's not at all the almighty tool, it's just another tool among many, no more/no less important than any other tool.

"Most people" tend to lay way too much importance in one area (Tunnel vision), when they should be removing the blinders to allow for an infinitely more open and realistic perspective.

Each vehicle and it's make-up are different which means that their reaction to like parts upgrades may also be different, this could be the result of countless variations and anomalies.

Again, you have chimed in and lent some great insight as to the problem "most people" have. Ex: Some guy tells you that a K&N gave him 3 HP. But you have a different car/setup than him. So your results will be DIFFERENT than his. My statement was about a CAI, which even you have stated is ineffective in MOST turbo apps. Your uber-detail-oriented-anal-retentive nature is astounding. So I will reiterate:
Matt: In a STOCK vehicle with no other mods, at driving speed, in 80 degree ambient temps, under boost and load, with no other variables, you will MOST LIKELY see no gains in a quality aftermarket off-the-shelf CAI design... over a quality large diameter filter cone replacing your airbox. Your gains will be negated by the extra weight of the CAI, if any at all, that's how little of an effect you MIGHT get.
I still love ya tho, TooCold

[Too Cold NB1.8T]

Originally Posted by zeusenergy

Again, you have chimed in and lent some great insight as to the problem "most people" have. Ex: Some guy tells you that a K&N gave him 3 HP. But you have a different car/setup than him. So your results will be DIFFERENT than his. My statement was about a CAI, which even you have stated is ineffective in MOST turbo apps. Your uber-detail-oriented-anal-retentive nature is astounding. So I will reiterate:
Matt: In a STOCK vehicle with no other mods, at driving speed, in 80 degree ambient temps, under boost and load, with no other variables, you will MOST LIKELY see no gains in a quality aftermarket off-the-shelf CAI design... over a quality large diameter filter cone replacing your airbox. Your gains will be negated by the extra weight of the CAI, if any at all, that's how little of an effect you MIGHT get.
I still love ya tho, TooCold

You might consider reading posts in general more closely (just a suggestion, but specifically my posts regarding this subject because no where do I say that a CAI/open air filter system is as you put it, ineffective, in a turbo charged engine application, the statements that I have repeatedly made on this subject, in this thread, in other like threads and in different forums, has nothing to do with whether or not a CAI or similar system lends any benefits to a turbo charged engine (because they can), what I said is that there is little if anything to be gain from the intake of "cooler air" on the intake side of the turbo since it will be super heated upon compression anyway, the benefit comes from any -increased air volume/flow-, not from the reduction of the air temperature.

I have a very thick skin, so the following is not of a retaliatory nature, just an FYI and possibly some additional words of wisdom regarding the "uber-detail-oriented-anal-retentive nature" that you seem to think I possess along with your reference to me in another thread as being bombastic, these are your opinions and you are of course welcome to it, however in this case, it is an opinion that is incorrect and largely misplaced due to one simple fact, you don't know me.

I am pretty good about reading posts and obtaining comprehention prior to issuing a response of my own so the reiteration of your earlier post for my benefit was not necessary, I get it, I am also reasonable detailed with my replies (as needed) in most cases, I do not assume that anything is obvious to anyone as this is a recipe that often leads to mishap and/or disaster.

Since it appears that you have misread and/or misunderstood at least some of what has been stated in this thread, it might be helpful and bring clarity to you, if you take the time to carefully reread the posts in this thread for the purpose of making sure that you have an absolutey accurate understanding of what it is each person is actually saying, only a suggestion.

Cheers...

[zeusenergy]

Originally Posted by Too Cold NB1.8T

You might consider reading posts in general more closely (just a suggestion, but specifically my posts regarding this subject because no where do I say that a CAI/open air filter system is as you put it, ineffective, in a turbo charged engine application, the statements that I have repeatedly made on this subject, in this thread, in other like threads and in different forums, has nothing to do with whether or not a CAI or similar system lends any benefits to a turbo charged engine (because they can), what I said is that there is little if anything to be gain from the intake of "cooler air" on the intake side of the turbo since it will be super heated upon compression anyway, the benefit comes from any -increased air volume/flow-, not from the reduction of the air temperature.

I have a very thick skin, so the following is not of a retaliatory nature, just an FYI and possibly some additional words of wisdom regarding the "uber-detail-oriented-anal-retentive nature" that you seem to think I possess along with your reference to me in another thread as being bombastic, these are your opinions and you are of course welcome to it, however in this case, it is an opinion that is incorrect and largely misplaced due to one simple fact, you don't know me.

I am pretty good about reading posts and obtaining comprehention prior to issuing a response of my own so the reiteration of your earlier post for my benefit was not necessary, I get it, I am also reasonable detailed with my replies (as needed) in most cases, I do not assume that anything is obvious to anyone as this is a recipe that often leads to mishap and/or disaster.

Since it appears that you have misread and/or misunderstood at least some of what has been stated in this thread, it might be helpful and bring clarity to you, if you take the time to carefully reread the posts in this thread for the purpose of making sure that you have an absolutey accurate understanding of what it is each person is actually saying, only a suggestion.

Cheers...

It's all good, Bro.... I made a funny and you got on the defense. It wasn't a dig, in fact i've complimented your knowledge many times here on the Org!
FYI: I'm anal retentive in some cases, too. This can be a GOOD thing!

[Too Cold NB1.8T]

I appreciate your props out, they don't go unnoticed.

Not on the defensive, when it comes to automobiles and delving out information, I'm on the serious.

No harm, no foul.

As I said before, Cheers...

[mat3833]

ok, question. how do i mount the K&N? strait on the MAF? on a velocity stack thats on the MAF??

also, would anyone be interested in a velocity stack that would fit inside od a 3 or 4 inch K&N cone style filter? i have autocad 2001 and proDesktop and could whip one up and possibly have it made. if someone who has access to a dyno would be interested i could try to get you the diagrams and such ASAP. i think having one machined would cost about 10-20, maby a bit more.

Matt

[Fowvay]

Originally Posted by mat3833

ok, question. how do i mount the K&N? strait on the MAF? on a velocity stack thats on the MAF??

also, would anyone be interested in a velocity stack that would fit inside od a 3 or 4 inch K&N cone style filter? i have autocad 2001 and proDesktop and could whip one up and possibly have it made. if someone who has access to a dyno would be interested i could try to get you the diagrams and such ASAP. i think having one machined would cost about 10-20, maby a bit more.

Matt

You could attach it straight to the MAF but with out some form of support I expect it will flop around pretty good and put undo stress on an already fragile component. I went the easy route and bought a P-Flo. Sure the heat shield is useless but it comes with a HUGE K&N filter and a really sweet support bracket made out of high grade stainless steel. It's light, strong and looks good.

Too bad it costs so much damn money. You can find the pretend version on ebay for well under $50 with a decent imitation K&N filter. However even if you replaced that filter with a true K&N it would still under cut the price of the P-Flo by $100.

That's the route I'd go today if I were to do it again.

[mat3833]

im thinking a hose clamp on the end of the filter with a rod going to the body.

Matt

[zeusenergy]

Originally Posted by Fowvay

You could attach it straight to the MAF but with out some form of support I expect it will flop around pretty good and put undo stress on an already fragile component. I went the easy route and bought a P-Flo. Sure the heat shield is useless but it comes with a HUGE K&N filter and a really sweet support bracket made out of high grade stainless steel. It's light, strong and looks good.

Too bad it costs so much damn money. You can find the pretend version on ebay for well under $50 with a decent imitation K&N filter. However even if you replaced that filter with a true K&N it would still under cut the price of the P-Flo by $100.

That's the route I'd go today if I were to do it again.

OMG Boyd is dead? I can't believe it. This is so sudden.... kinda like Indian Larry. Man, I'm bummed now bro.