Turbo Upgrade Questions...

[Too Cold NB1.8T]

For a daily driver with an upgraded turbo charger and engine management software geared toward higher boost levels, a properly designed air to air FMIC is the best overall option for optimum cooling of the pressurize air from the turbo.

It is directly in the path of the on coming air flow, it is low the ground where the coolest air lives and the front of most vehicles is the place that will allow for the largest core.

The air to air TMIC is a nice idea for a vehicle manufacturer that has invested serious money into R&D in order to make it work for a given application, such as Subaru with their WRX, however, this design has some negatives, mainly the fact that heat rises and the engine will be happy to supply plenty of it, this will also require some expensive frontend modifications to make sure that the air is properly rammed into the intercooler and then there is typically a space limitation.

Beware, if they are still using K04 compressors to build the E05 series turbo chargers ( which is probably the case), here is the problem, the K04 compressor cannot accommodate a turbine shaft that is large enough in diameter to take the stress of the much more aggressive turbine blade setup that these builder like to equip them with, this has been know to result in premature turbo failure due to the turbine shaft snapping.

The use of larger injectors are determined by the engine setup and proper software tuning of that engine will be necessary, a reasonably large increase in injector size will also require a larger than stock turbo (K04 and up), larger MAF sensor and some other upgrades to make it all work correctly.

The FPR is determined by the engine configuration and the engine management tuning, one cannot just assume 4bar, 5bar or any other size, like everything else, this must be dialed in with the applicable tools and monitoring equipment.

[zeusenergy]

Originally Posted by Yurko

maybe, but in a previous post you said you didn't have a K03s, but a K03. if you have a 2001, you should have an AWV engine, which has a K03s. if that's the case, your stock injectors should be fine. However if you have an APH engine (which means you probably don't have a 2001), which has the K03, then you have small injectors that will likely require replacement.

My research on this particular topic came across some info that if you put a 4 bar FPR on the APH, the injector output will increase, and that's cheaper than all new injectors.

Very good tip. Can the stock injectors take the increase in pressure from the beefier FPR?

[Too Cold NB1.8T]

Most of the upgrade software programs out there for the K03, K04 and E05 turbo chargers require that a 4bar FPR be used with the stock injectors in place, this includes the APH engine.

The only times that it would be necessary to increase injector size is if your engine setup/build creates a fuel demand that takes the existing units past say 80% duty cycle, or, if like me, you have a larger turbo, larger injectors, the correct peripherals and the right software program/tuning suited for this setup, this is all for the purpose of delivering even more power than the standard K04 upgrade.

Remember though, when it comes to pressure vs. volume/flow, just like with turbo chargers, fuel systems rely mostly on volume, a given amount of pressure is necessary depending on the application but it is the flow and volume that makes the real difference.

Too often, enthusiast try and substitute pressure for volume in an attempt to save dollars, a common example of this is those that force their stock K03/K03S into delivering well past 12psi sustained and 15psi peak boost (bad, bad move) rather than spending the time and money to install a larger turbo that can produce the required additional air flow/volume without exceeding the safe mechanical efficiency range that the manufacture intended, these are probably the same people who think that by maxing out the controls on their stereo's passive graphic equalizer they can get more power than their amplifier is rated to supply.

There are no free lunches, suggestion to all, whatever vehicle modifications you set out to do, do your homework and as far as level terms of importance, do not put the dollar ahead of proper results, do the job right or don't do it at all.

[zeusenergy]

Originally Posted by Too Cold NB1.8T

Most of the upgrade software programs out there for the K03, K04 and E05 turbo chargers require that a 4bar FPR be used with the stock injectors in place, this includes the APH engine.

The only times that it would be necessary to increase injector size is if your engine setup/build creates a fuel demand that takes the existing units past say 80% duty cycle, or, if like me, you have a larger turbo, the correct peripherals and the right software tuning designed to deliver even more HP & TQ.

Remember though, when it comes to pressure vs. volume, just like with turbo chargers fuel systems rely mostly on volume.

Nice.... That's great to know I won't need injectors for a k04 upgrade! I would send them out to be tested & cleaned though. That's one of the things beginners don't take into account: if the existing (stock) setup is weak or old, you will break the proverbial camel's back straight away upon boosting higher! That's my tip for others who read this thread. MAKE SURE EVERYTHING is up to speed and in tip-top shape before modding anything critical. Intake and exhaust mods are okay to do anytime, but not much more.
BTW, the TMIC idea does have to be properly engineered. But then so does an FMIC. My personal plan is the space right above the space above the intake manifold (sort of)... Yes, I'll have to go nuts modding and working metal to make a proper hood, but that's okay by me. Shrouding is also of major concern. But anything can be done, and I think the addition of a bulge at the front of the hood with a mesh grille and intercooler behind it, would be very nice. I'll have to make up a simple drawing....
It will stand up and not cover the plugs at all.
The subaru has an advantage where the intake is right near the turbo, and allows the intercooler to sit "between" them nicely. My design will add length to those tubes, but less so than the stock setup, with larger smoother flow paths and a much better intercooler with both inlet and exhaust vents built into the hood. NEVER would the backside hot air from the intercooler touch the engine bay itself. And it would only take four bolts and two hoses to detach both the frontal duct and intercooler at the same time. The exhaust duct will be built into the hood in a reverse scoop, so you will see the outlet from the interior, ever so slightly....

[thexnightmarexstops]

thanks for all you guys different input.
its good to think about all this from all different angles.

i'm trying to do all the homework i can before i go and get a K04 and break something else, or have in tuned in a way that some tiny part of the system is holding it back, limiting the performance.

like i said.
if im going through the trouble and money i want to get the best package i can.

[Too Cold NB1.8T]

In my last post I made reference to some no no's regarding K03/K03S turbo chargers and their design and efficiency limitations as they relate to pressure, every part has some limitation and efficiency cap.

Since you are considering the K04, suggestion, whatever software you choose, make sure that it is set for a peak boost of 18psi and a sustained boost of about 16psi, these are the designed maximum safe efficiency boost levels for the K04 and E05 series turbo chargers.

Some people out there go for that non-existant "free lunch" by over boosting these units in an attempt to obtain more power, they do this because they don't want to spend the cash to do it right which would be to go with an even larger turbo setup, as I said before, pressure is important but volume is the ticket, it is a team effort though.

[Billsbug]

Originally Posted by Too Cold NB1.8T

In my last post I made reference to some no no's regarding K03/K03S turbo chargers and their design and efficiency limitations as they relate to pressure, every part has some limitation and efficiency cap.

Since you are considering the K04, suggestion, whatever software you choose, make sure that it is set for a peak boost of 18psi and a sustained boost of about 16psi, these are the designed maximum safe efficiency boost levels for the K04 and E05 series turbo chargers.

Some people out there go for that non-existant "free lunch" by over boosting these units in an attempt to obtain more power, they do this because they don't want to spend the cash to do it right which would be to go with an even larger turbo setup, as I said before, pressure is important but volume is the ticket, it is a team effort though.

Ok Too Cold NB1.8T, so ur mods are "larger turbo, larger injectors, larger MAF sensor, special GIAC software program" and so on. So I'll assume it's a K04-010 with a 225HP TT MAF, but with what size injectors and how exactly did GIAC do the custom programming? Do u use a MBC to control boost? If so, which one? Have u ever been dyno-ed?

[Too Cold NB1.8T]

I use a Eurospec E04 which is their supplied K04 and yes, among a vast amount of other upgrades and vehicle modifications, I use the same 3" MAF sensor and 386cc injectors found in a specific year/model 225HP Audi TT.

It took a lot of research and leg work on my part but found that GIAC had a large injector software file that was determined to be near perfect for my particular setup, however, the cost of this software was much more expensive than most chips out there.

I do not, nor have I ever found the need to used an MBC, when it comes to dyno testing, no, I have not dyno tested my car in it's current state.

Anyone who has read various comments that I've posted on different threads regarding the subject of dyno's, will probably know that I view the dyno as just another tool used in the process of developing and tuning engines/vehicles, the numbers that a dyno reflects will not tell one how quick/fast a vehicle will be in real world operation, I have seen cars with higher dyno numbers get spanked by cars with lower dyno numbers, for most enthusiast these numbers are simply used for "mine is bigger than yours" bragging rights, not interested...

I may at some point dyno test my current setup just for the sake of knowing but, when I pull away from an S2000, some Bimmers, Audi 1.8t/3.0L V6's and late model V8 Mustangs on the freeway to name some, this tells me a lot more about the status of my cars progress than any numbers that a dyno can provide...

[Billsbug]

Yes, yes, yes, I know, but it's a good base number to look at, i.e. a properly set-up 190whp NB is still gonna be < a properly set-up 240whp NB.