Turbo Upgrade Questions...

[thexnightmarexstops]

Im sure this sounds stupid. And its probally been gone over a thousand times.
Better safe than sorry.

Im looking at buying a K04-001. This is the turbo I need right?
I understand its a direct fit.

Do i need bigger injectors if i plan to get k04 software as well?

Also how many horsepower am i looking at from stock to K04 and software upgrade.

Thanks for any info.

[afinley]

some softwares use bigger injectors (revo) some dont. unitronics does not use bigger injectors.

most people claim ~15-35hp more than a k03s. what more important than the max hp number is the area under the curve.

if its a maintenence upgrade, its the best way to go. if you want more power, a t3-60 setup only costs marginally more, and nets you more than 50hp more than a k04

[Eriksbug]

I have a k04-001 with giac software and I love mine. The giac setup does call for bigger injectors plus a lot of other upgrades as well(intercooler, maf, n75, exhaust, intake,)but my car is definately a lot faster than with the k03s. From what I've heard th k04-001 is the only turbo you can just swap out but if you just swap it out without new software and other goodies, its not gonna be very different than the k03s and may not run as good. Look into software and see what software requires what and then go from there. I believe apr has a program that doesn't require a fmic or injectors.

[Yurko]

I've been reading up on this a lot lately, as I am trying to decide how much to put into my current car or wait for a new one.

While you will see a hp bump with the K04-001, the greatest benefits come from an increase in torque combined with a faster spool and the ability to hold boost longer. This means more power, available through a wider range of RPMs. I recall seeing a comparison of some dyno charts where a K03 or K03s was compared to a K04-001, and the K03 torque peaked around 2500 rpm and dropped off, while the K04 peaked around 2500 and held through 5500.

It seems like the norm for a chipped K04-001 is around 200-225 whp and 275+ ft/lbs, assuming you don't have an APH engine, in which case you will need to upgrade your fueling.

[thexnightmarexstops]

my car doesnt have the ko3s. just the k03.

so the k4 will be a good upgrade either way.
I have an intake.
and 2.5 turbo back straight.
i plan to put together a front mount IC at the same time so all this wont be a problem.

Im just trying to figure out what software to go with.
I want the most horsepower possible if that makes sense

[Billsbug]

These are all good questions, but questions you really should be asking your tuning shop. If they can't answer them to your satisfaction, change shops. It's not the most horsepower, but how it's fed in IMO.

BTW, ur gonna have a hard time fitting a FMIC if u wanna retain your bumper clip. I suggest this: http://www.tyrolsport.com/index.php?...d=52&parent=67

[afinley]

think about upgrade paths as well. be realistic that this may or may not be the last time opt for a larger turbo. find software that supports your car as it is, as well as where you may want to take it

[Billsbug]

Yeah, I'd try a chip first, believe me u'll be stunned, and eventually when u feel it's too slow, if that ever even happens that is, then go bigger.

[thexnightmarexstops]

honestly guys i live in the middle of nowhere in south georgia.
i may be wrong but i think the closest shop is in fl.

im just trying to get some ideas.

is a fmic install that hard to fit?

[NYBugman]

Originally Posted by thexnightmarexstops

is a fmic install that hard to fit?

I can only think of one that will fit behind the stock non-S bumper without any modification, and that is the one from BAR Tuning. Most of the FMIC installs I've seen on Beetles w. stock bumpers have looked like hack jobs, IMO.

However, the Tyrolsport SMIC will fit and maintain sleeper status, and give you the cooling you need.

[thexnightmarexstops]

i deff want a full FM.
im not even considering a SM upgrade.

i think with time taken to do it right it could be done up to par.

[Billsbug]

Sounds to me like ur looking for a 'tuner car look', not the actual benefits of a FMIC.

[thexnightmarexstops]

it just seems to me that if im going to take the time to install all that i should go ahead and do t to the best.

i may be wrong. actually im sure i am. but.
i cant make myself see how the little SM could ever cool as much as a full front mount.

like i said im sure im wrong so nobody freak on me.

but i really would like to have a FM installed. I dont know how far i want to go with the car. but wouldn't eventually a FM be necessary?

and i do like the style aspect too.
trying to keep a balance between what "I" want. and what my car needs. ha

[Yurko]

Originally Posted by thexnightmarexstops

i may be wrong. actually im sure i am. but.
i cant make myself see how the little SM could ever cool as much as a full front mount.

read up on people's impressions of the various SMIC upgrades available

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3299642

but i really would like to have a FM installed. I dont know how far i want to go with the car. but wouldn't eventually a FM be necessary?

not necessarily.

and i do like the style aspect too.
trying to keep a balance between what "I" want. and what my car needs. ha

ah, the truth is revealed. Billsbug is right. maximize what you have now and then go from there if you are considering BT in the future. Also consider the fact that a decent-size FMIC will significantly increase your coolant temps as well.

I feel your pain, as I also have a K03 and when it goes I'll end up with a K04, but chipping and maximizing your current setup with a new TIP and the rest of your tubing before you drop the cash on a new IC and/or turbo will show you the biggest gains when you do upgrade. I'm guessing you have an APH engine, which means you also have smaller injectors and a smaller FPR, which restrict your power as well.

If you do end up getting a K04, put a 3" DP on when you change it.

[NYBugman]

Originally Posted by thexnightmarexstops

i cant make myself see how the little SM could ever cool as much as a full front mount.

The tyrolsport SMIC is a 6" thick Bell intercooler core and has probably 8.5" of frontal area. I bet if you do the math on the internal surface area vs. a common FMIC core, you'll come up with similar numbers. Just because a FMIC look bigger does not mean it's better. Air has to flow efficiently inside the intercooler as well as through the intercooler.

Plus, FMIC's have a lot more piping, which can make for more lag, as well as the core blocking the radiator which can raise coolant temps.

Don't just get a FMIC because it looks cool. I'd rather have a part that works better and not look as good than something that will score points with judges.

So think, do you want a fast car or a car that looks fast?

[thexnightmarexstops]

i know, i know guys.

i have to admit i didnt think of the surface area.
that does make sense
and like i said i am probaly wrong. haha
and i do thank you guys for explaining instead of just giving up.
im trying to learn as much as i can.

but anyway.
intercooler dicision or not.

for the k04 bigger injectors would depend on the software?
or would it be a wise decision to go ahead and get them based on i have a 2001?

[Too Cold NB1.8T]

Most of the standard software for the K04 is designed to work with the engine as is for the most part (including stock injectors), however, there are some programs out there that are designed for specific larger injectors but they typically require that other parts (FMIC, 3" MAF sensor etc.) be changed as well.

Your idea to upgrade to a K04 is very reasonable since this turbo is a direct replacement for the stock unit and only requires that you install the K04 software of your choice, if you are interested in yet even more power then a larger turbo like the Super-60 or T3/T4 hybrid are options, these larger turbo's require a lot more work and customization and obtaining proper software/tuning can be a real painful ordeal.

A performance SMIC is nice if one is trying to maintain a stock appearance and the turbo in place is with-in the long term cooling means of the FMIC, but, if one is looking for the most efficient long term cooling of the intake air, then a properly designed FMIC is by far the better option.

The SMIC must be very thick in order to make up for it's serious lack of lateral/vertical dimensions, this increases it's internal volume capacity but drastically reduces it's surface area, the problem here is that the unit must be excessively thick as an attempt to make up for it's lack of surface area, this makes it difficult (maybe impossible) for the cooling air to effectively reach all core areas of the SMIC closer to the middle and back of the unit (exit section), fact, this reduces it's cooling and functional efficiency.

If the external cooling air cannot properly transfer through the unit and thereby completely effect the internal air prior to it's exit into the intake manifold under all operating levels, then it does not matter what the internal volume capacity of the unit is because there will just be hot air inside being sent to the manifold, imagine configuring your radiator like a performance SMIC, now, imagine what the results would be...

An FMIC posses a much larger lateral/vertical dimension than an SMIC and this in itself allows for far greater surface area for cooling air to contact and flow through simultaneously, the fact that most well designed FMIC's typically don't exceed a thickness of 3 inches (unlike most SMIC's) which allows for air to flow freely through the entire unit, it is these areas that validate the FMIC as being the hands down better choice if one is interested in the optimum performer here.

[sledge0001]

If you can hold out another month or so I will be posting numbers on the E05b Turbo which is bolt on but does require similar if not the same upgrades to the injectors, Maf etc...

This way you can see if this may be a comparable upgrade...

Here is a link to the progress of this project!!
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3609448

And yes it is a 6 speed tiptronic!

[zeusenergy]

Originally Posted by thexnightmarexstops

my car doesnt have the ko3s. just the k03.

so the k4 will be a good upgrade either way.
I have an intake.
and 2.5 turbo back straight.
i plan to put together a front mount IC at the same time so all this wont be a problem.

Im just trying to figure out what software to go with.
I want the most horsepower possible if that makes sense

A FMIC as others have told you, may not be the best decision. Read this post I just wrote for more info:
http://www.newbeetle.org/forums/show...895#post387895
I think that a TMIC may be another way for you to go. I plan to eventually create a new hood that has a grille at the front to accept the TMIC, like a second radiator opening. It will be angled to look better with the stock bodywork. There will be several thing I will need to do, and this mod will not come until I have a K04 or better in hand anyway. And NO, I'm not a Subaru junkie! But the TMIC design does have many benefits.
Oh, and it will surely be more original than all the FMIC's I see ricers using, yet still give it a "rally car" look...

[Yurko]

Originally Posted by thexnightmarexstops

for the k04 bigger injectors would depend on the software?
or would it be a wise decision to go ahead and get them based on i have a 2001?

maybe, but in a previous post you said you didn't have a K03s, but a K03. if you have a 2001, you should have an AWV engine, which has a K03s. if that's the case, your stock injectors should be fine. However if you have an APH engine (which means you probably don't have a 2001), which has the K03, then you have small injectors that will likely require replacement.

My research on this particular topic came across some info that if you put a 4 bar FPR on the APH, the injector output will increase, and that's cheaper than all new injectors.