heat soak

[PsycologyNerd]

Hi y'all. I will post pics of my NB on the newbee thread soon, promise. Until then, I have a reflex silver 04 1.8t vert. It's stock...so far, more will be coming soon! My car guy of a husband wanted to know: how bad is heat soak with the stock inner cooler on these babies? He has a bunch of mods to his 337, one of which is an eurojet fmic. It won't be stock for too much longer, but I need a little while before i can upgrade all that I want. Will a fmic make that big of a difference?
Thanks!
Diana

[johnmichael]

Originally Posted by PsycologyNerd

Will a fmic make that big of a difference?
Thanks!
Diana

Depends on your definition of a difference. My intake temp logs were only 7-8 degrees higher on my stock IC compared to my FMIC.

HP gains are going to be negligible (i've seen as little as 7 hp gain), for the HP to $ ratio, you'd be better off spending your money on an ecu chip/turbo back exhaust.

[PsycologyNerd]

his plans for the NB

k04
FMIC
2.5 turbo back
esc intake
forge 007
his BBS RC's (he's going to 19's on h&r coilovers)
his 337 springs and shocks (if compatible..more research needed)

[Yurko]

If you're dropping some $$ on a decent FMIC, look at the aftermarket SMIC option from Tyrolsport, especially if you're only going up to a K04 (001?). FMIC on NB can block too much air flow to the radiator, although many have them anyways.

If you stay sidemount, add a Turbo-S driver side fender liner to your list.

oh, and this is off topic, but nice SN. I'm finishing up my PhD in I/O.

[PsycologyNerd]

Thanks for the tips guys I'll make sure to let me mechanic (aka my hubby!) know all the info.

Yurko - I'm cog. Good to know there's more of us out here!

[Yurko]

Originally Posted by Yurko

If you stay sidemount, add a Turbo-S driver side fender liner to your list.

correction: passenger side, as the intercooler is not on the driver side.

cool, I'm more social-cog than anything, so I would agree.

[Billsbug]

Isn't it spelled 'psychology'?

Welcome and click my sig for modded vert.

[Too Cold NB1.8T]

Where some intercooler designs start to fail (Heat-soak) and other intercooler designs continue to be productive (air coolers) is when longer duration hard driving is applied, not while idling at operating temperatures or during normal driving, idling and normal driving ventures are the wrong times to take comparative air temperature measurements.

Pedal to the metal high speed driving and hard acceleration for long periods of time is where a proper FMIC and an SMIC will separate in performance levels, the FMIC is definitely the superior unit.

Under moderate driving or short term spirited driving the stock intercooler on a stock Beetle will work alright, as soon as you start with long duration heavy pedal driving or repeated hard acceleration, heat-soak will visit you and make it's presence very well know (especially in warmer weather), an obvious power loss will be noted.

There is a big difference in core surface area between an FMIC and an SMIC, manufacturers try to make-up some of the size difference by increasing the thickness of the SMIC but this makes it less efficient in terms of proper front to back air flow (core cooling) and it does not at all make-up for the large surface area difference.

Two correctly configured SMIC's on the same vehicle might close the gap some but not one.

[PsycologyNerd]

yeah it is me the uneducated idiot, my wife corrected me also. I cant spell for crap, but i can find my way around a car fairly well. hence me not really going further than AS degree's. lol. My intelagence leans more to the understanding mechanical things. But unfortuanately im farely new to FI and am still learning on a semi regular basis.

I was actually contemplating this weekend about the thicker smics, but too cold you bring up some good points that I have forgotten. Thanks. I have been thinking about rigging up some temp sensors for a while now and do some hard evidence finding for myself. So I can make the apropriate choice.

[mat3833]

how would you plumb a dual SMIC settup? a Y-pipe that splits the intake charge in 2, one for each IC? i have a feeling that there would be considerable lag with a Dual SMIC settup.

Matt

[Too Cold NB1.8T]

The greatest concerns with any intercooler, FMIC, SMIC, TMIC, liquid cooled etc. are to apply the most >consistant cooling< of the internal pressurized air as it flows through the unit in order to achieve the lowest air temperature inside the intake manifold and cylinder head(s) with little or no reduction in boost pressure while maintaining the smoothest low restriction pathways.

If one can engineer an intercooler that meets the above goals then it doesn't much matter which design one chooses, unfortunately the physical core size and where it's located on the vehicle play a large part in how well it works.

The intercooler that is able to be mounted low and in front on a vehicle where the coldest air with the most direct in coming air pathway is equals FMIC, the intercooler typically with the largest usable core surface area and internal volume capacity combination with the most free flowing core base being that it's less thick (normal 3 inches or less) equals FMIC.

You won't suffer any additional lag or other issues if the intercooler and plumbing is designed correctly, although possible, an intercooler is not for increasing power, it is for maintaining power that would ordinarily be sucked way as temperatures rise, a proper intercooler will keep temperatures on the cooler side for longer durations which will allow the engine to produce it's designed power levels for longer periods of time.

Chances are a dual SMIC design has the air run through one IC and then through the other before entering the engine on a 4 cyl., however, I believe they were used one V6's and maybe V8's where a twin turbo setup exists with separate plumbing from each turbo, I haven't really examined the design because it has never been a consideration for me.

[Billsbug]

Originally Posted by mat3833

how would you plumb a dual SMIC settup? a Y-pipe that splits the intake charge in 2, one for each IC? i have a feeling that there would be considerable lag with a Dual SMIC settup.

Matt

The 225hp Audi TT has 'em as OEM. Can't remember exactly now, but there's something about our engine bay that requires moving some stuff around to make it fit, the battery is one I think.

These guys sell it: http://www.eurospecsport.com/dualic.htm

[Billsbug]

Found this: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1519175

2 interesting statements from several threads:

1. "There is a noticeable decrease in throttle response, and increase in spool time."
2. "You can't do the dual IC's with a CAI. You'd see better performance gains from the dual IC's vs the CAI though."

[PsycologyNerd]

Originally Posted by Too Cold NB1.8T

You won't suffer any additional lag or other issues if the intercooler and plumbing is designed correctly, although possible, an intercooler is not for increasing power, it is for maintaining power that would ordinarily be sucked way as temperatures rise, a proper intercooler will keep temperatures on the cooler side for longer durations which will allow the engine to produce it's designed power levels for longer periods of time.

this is why I like them they also help with controling detination

[Yurko]

I'm guessing with a stock turbo you will have serious problems with pressure drops across a DSMIC setup.

check out the forced induction forums on vwvortex for detailed info on different IC setups.

[vdubbugman53]

you wont see much pressure drop at all....your turbo will put out what is requested of it. what you will see is a longer time for the pipes to fill with charged air

[zeusenergy]

Originally Posted by PsycologyNerd

yeah it is me the uneducated idiot, my wife corrected me also. I cant spell for crap, but i can find my way around a car fairly well. hence me not really going further than AS degree's. lol. My intelagence leans more to the understanding mechanical things. But unfortuanately im farely new to FI and am still learning on a semi regular basis.

I was actually contemplating this weekend about the thicker smics, but too cold you bring up some good points that I have forgotten. Thanks. I have been thinking about rigging up some temp sensors for a while now and do some hard evidence finding for myself. So I can make the apropriate choice.

TooCold has a lot of good advice. Pay attention to it! SMICs are a factory compromise on the bug. Same goes for the TT. An FMIC is definately going to raise the coolant temps as you may have read, but there are better bumpers or hoods that can get you the air you need to cool it all down right. Expect electric fan premature failures from running more often and the raised coolant temps wearing out other stuff quicker too, if you plan to keep everything body-related stock. That's if you are flogging the car regularly...
There's also the possibility of modding your own mount and pipe routing to do something out of the ordinary. This would be up to you as I haven't yet seen anything but a true FMIC or SMIC setup on the bug, YET

[vdubbugman53]

i run an FMIC on my 2.0 and i see about 220 deg water temps and 230 or so on the oil

[PsycologyNerd]

what were your stock temps?

[Billsbug]

Stock VW temps are 180-190F.