Ethanol

[miffmole]

Pumps in my area of SC are suddenly sporting 10% ethanol stickers lately. From what I've read, 10% ethanol is supposed to be safe, while 20% will destroy your engine...Sounds like to me that 10% just does it slower.
Any opinions?

[FlwrPwer]

All gas in NY has 10% ethanol...at least in my area....and have had it for years now.

I used it in my 1.8t with zero problems.

[SMG]

I don't understand why they are doing this...

I read that it takes 1.3 gallons of gasoline to make 1 gallon of ethanol, due to the energy needed to run the huge tractors, farm machinery, etc. So how exactly is that practical besides driving up fuel prices?

[LadybugEwa]

Originally Posted by SMG

So how exactly is that practical besides driving up fuel prices?

answered your own question there

[miffmole]

An interesting 20/20 video by John Stossell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9QQcP_Y1II

[pinky]

its pretty common to see up to 10%.. around here at least.

its supposed to be better for the environment (burns cleaner), but it doesnt make sense, because fuel mileage typically decreases.. so you just burn more of a lower energy fuel

[Yurko]

Originally Posted by miffmole

An interesting 20/20 video by John Stossell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9QQcP_Y1II

Stossel's a Grade-A D-Bag, but that's pretty accurate. Ethanol is a good idea, just corn-based ethanol doesn't actually solve any problems.

Anyways, I don't have experience with anything but the 89 octane ethanol in NE and IA, which made my Maxima run like poo. I haven't put it in my beetle yet, and don't plan on it.

[jackfrost]

ethanol wont hurt the motor, been around since the last gas issue around here. newer cars are set up to run 10%, any higher and the issue becomes the cars cant deal with the amount of oxygen in the fuel and makes them run horrible, but the e85 capable cars recalibrate themselves and run ok not great but ok.

[miffmole]

How is Ethanol affecting your MPG? Since ethanol made it's entrance in my part of the US, I've seen my mileage drop from 31 MPG, to 27.8 MPG on my last fill-up 30 minutes ago...It's only been here for about 2 months (the 90%/10% variety).

How about the rest of you?

[Teacup]

Henry Ford designed the Model T to run on ethanol. Rockefeller changed the business model to oil. Now we're hooked on foreign oil. I prefer something we can make in America. Ethanol has created a lot of jobs in the midwest, too. Not the ultimate solution, but better than oil from the middle east. By far. Look at the big picture.

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

This has been a raging debate for a long time. The oil companies are paid by the Government to introduce corn grain alcohol into their gasoline, a way of subsidizing the corn farmer, so yes, it is a win-win-win-win for the oil companies, a less expensive additive, a Government reward for doing so, not adjusting the selling price accordingly, and selling more of it (about 10% more) because of a decrease in efficiency (about 10% less mpg).

As to the 10% content, I travel the country by road, and the labels I typically see at the pump say that the gasoline "MAY contain up to 10% Ethanol", not that it does, OR is 10%. Also as I understand it, you may think it is just now being introduced into your market, but the reality is, just more and more States are requiring the labeling at the pump. I'm betting all gasoline being sold has Ethanol. Seen any signs in stations touting the fact their gasoline doesn't? People would be standing in line, given the price were the same.

But then, I guess we all love Big Brother, because we just continue to accept what HE shoves down our throats.

MORAV

[Smileybug]

Here in NC, they are not required to label pumps for ethanol content, which I really hate. I run under the assumption that all the stations have ethanol, but I want to know one way or another.

I've also heard they are pushing for getting E15 at the pumps.

I'm not a fan, for a number of reasons. But I certainly noticed a drop in MPG once ethanol became prevalent. I remember first seeing the signs and thinking it was cool. Ugh.

[Steve_pnchbug]

Actually some BP stations don't have ethanol gas. The right cross from where I work actually dose have on there sign "Zero ethanol gas sold here." Its more expensive then anywhere else in town though. I guess that's kinda to be expected. But here in Va we've had ethanol gas for a long time. For the last six years at least the pumps have had stickers on them. I'm pretty sure the state law to have them posted.


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[Mutato]

I call it summer gas and winter gas. In the summer they use a less percent my MPG goes up and winter the use more like 10% and my MPG goes down. I loose like 2 MPG in the winter months starting in October.

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Originally Posted by Smileybug

but I want to know one way or another.

Good luck on that one!

[miffmole]

Originally Posted by SMG

I don't understand why they are doing this...

I read that it takes 1.3 gallons of gasoline to make 1 gallon of ethanol, due to the energy needed to run the huge tractors, farm machinery, etc. So how exactly is that practical besides driving up fuel prices?

Exactly...
And tell me this: If you add 10% ethanol into the gasoline supply (for a 90% gas-10% ethanol ratio), and then ethanol reduces your mpg about 10% (and it does for me), then what exactly is being accomplished here?

Where is the wisdom in this?

If ethanol is such a great idea, then why do we need tax subsidies for it?

Ethanol is a hoax.

[miffmole]

Big Corn and Ethanol Hoax - Page 1 - Walter E. Williams - Townhall Conservative

Big Corn and Ethanol Hoax

by Dr. Walter Williams, Ph.D. in Economics from UCLA
John M. Olin Distinguished Professor of Economics
George Mason University

One of the many mandates of the Energy Policy Act of 2005 calls for oil companies to increase the amount of ethanol mixed with gasoline. President Bush said, during his 2006 State of the Union address, "America is addicted to oil, which is often imported from unstable parts of the world." Let's look at some of the "wonders" of ethanol as a replacement for gasoline.

Ethanol contains water that distillation cannot remove. As such, it can cause major damage to automobile engines not specifically designed to burn ethanol. The water content of ethanol also risks pipeline corrosion and thus must be shipped by truck, rail car or barge. These shipping methods are far more expensive than pipelines.

Ethanol is 20 to 30 percent less efficient than gasoline, making it more expensive per highway mile. It takes 450 pounds of corn to produce the ethanol to fill one SUV tank. That's enough corn to feed one person for a year. Plus, it takes more than one gallon of fossil fuel -- oil and natural gas -- to produce one gallon of ethanol. After all, corn must be grown, fertilized, harvested and trucked to ethanol producers -- all of which are fuel-using activities. And, it takes 1,700 gallons of water to produce one gallon of ethanol. On top of all this, if our total annual corn output were put to ethanol production, it would reduce gasoline consumption by 10 or 12 percent.

Ethanol is so costly that it wouldn't make it in a free market. That's why Congress has enacted major ethanol subsidies, about $1.05 to $1.38 a gallon, which is no less than a tax on consumers. In fact, there's a double tax -- one in the form of ethanol subsidies and another in the form of handouts to corn farmers to the tune of $9.5 billion in 2005 alone.

There's something else wrong with this picture. If Congress and President Bush say we need less reliance on oil and greater use of renewable fuels, then why would Congress impose a stiff tariff, 54 cents a gallon, on ethanol from Brazil? Brazilian ethanol, by the way, is produced from sugar cane and is far more energy efficient, cleaner and cheaper to produce.

Ethanol production has driven up the prices of corn-fed livestock, such as beef, chicken and dairy products, and products made from corn, such as cereals. As a result of higher demand for corn, other grain prices, such as soybean and wheat, have risen dramatically. The fact that the U.S. is the world's largest grain producer and exporter means that the ethanol-induced higher grain prices will have a worldwide impact on food prices.

It's easy to understand how the public, looking for cheaper gasoline, can be taken in by the call for increased ethanol usage. But politicians, corn farmers and ethanol producers know they are running a cruel hoax on the American consumer. They are in it for the money. The top leader in the ethanol hoax is Archer Daniels Midland (ADM), the country's largest producer of ethanol. Ethanol producers and the farm lobby have pressured farm state congressmen into believing that it would be political suicide if they didn't support subsidized ethanol production. That's the stick. Campaign contributions play the role of the carrot.

The ethanol hoax is a good example of a problem economists refer to as narrow, well-defined benefits versus widely dispersed costs. It pays the ethanol lobby to organize and collect money to grease the palms of politicians willing to do their bidding because there's a large benefit for them -- higher wages and profits. The millions of gasoline consumers, who fund the benefits through higher fuel and food prices, as well as taxes, are relatively uninformed and have little clout. After all, who do you think a politician will invite into his congressional or White House office to have a heart-to-heart -- you or an Archer Daniels Midlands executive?

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Originally Posted by miffmole

Exactly...
And tell me this: If you add 10% ethanol into the gasoline supply (for a 90% gas-10% ethanol ratio), and then ethanol reduces your mpg about 10% (and it does for me), then what exactly is being accomplished here?

Where is the wisdom in this?

If ethanol is such a great idea, then why do we need tax subsidies for it?

All about money, my friend! Does this not move money, from your and my pockets, into the pockets of others, much higher up the socioeconomic ladder?
Remember, he with the gold writes the rules!

@ miffmole , excellent find and post! Thanks.

[taanote]

Not sure about the actual cost and the true reason in the U.S.
Here in Thailand, gas stations have been offering 90/10 mix for many many years. The reason is that it's cheaper to produce ethanol domestically than importing oil from other countries. This means less trade deficit and dependence on imported oil for the country, and probably a bit higher margin for oil companies.(Although ethanol gas is cheaper.)
As the oil price is increasing, the price gap between 100% gas and ethanol gas will be greater.

In Thailand, 90/10 mixture is specifically called "gasohol"
In addition, they also offer E20 and E85 which are 80/20 and 15/85 ratio respectively. However, these varieties are not for older cars.
Only cars that are particularly designed to be compatible can run on these varieties with no problem. Most of them are newer models from Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Ford.
In fact, a lot of cars in the U.S. can run on E85. Check this link.
Flexible Fuel Vehicles | Ethanol Retailers

Most problems with older cars are rubber parts that are directly exposed to fuel, such as fuel line.