2000 nb

[AndyBees]

This one will not start according to the owner. His battery was too weak to turn it over when I went by today. Based on the conversation, I think the car has been sitting for several weeks.

I just turned on the key and did a scan with VCDS.

Any ideas on where to start?

.........notice there are two codes involving the Camshaft Sensor.

13 Faults Found:

18057 - Powertrain Data Bus: Missing Message from ABS Controller
P1649 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 35-00 - -
16685 - Cylinder 1: Misfire Detected
P0301 - 35-00 - -
16687 - Cylinder 3: Misfire Detected
P0303 - 35-00 - -
16686 - Cylinder 2: Misfire Detected
P0302 - 35-00 - -
17536 - Fuel Trim; Bank 1 (Mult): System too Lean
P1128 - 35-00 - -
17748 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incor. Correlation
P1340 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16688 - Cylinder 4: Misfire Detected
P0304 - 35-00 - -
17884 - EVAP Leak Detection Pump: Malfunction / Insufficient Vacuum
P1476 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16712 - Knock Sensor 1 (G61): Signal too High
P0328 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16725 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40): Implausible Signal
P0341 - 35-00 - -
16486 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70): Signal too Low
P0102 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16717 - Knock Sensor 2 (G66): Signal too High
P0333 - 35-00 - -

[IndyTom]

WOW, that is quite a list. First of all what type of 2000 New Beetle is it? 2.0, 1.8, ??? Automatic or Manual transmission.

Did the car run normally prior to it not starting? Did it have any prior symptoms. Rough idle, hesitation, Misfires, stalling? With the knock sensor signal being high and all those misfire codes it makes me believe that the timing is off. Did you take the timing belt cover off and take a look at the timing belt? How many miles on the car? When is the last time the timing belt service was performed?

The cam positioning Sensor can cause the car not to start since it is responsible for the synchronization of the fuel injectors and the coil(s) but there seems to be a slew of other issues as well. If you look at the timing belt try and inspect it for any missing teeth.

Keep us posted on the progress.

Good Luck!

[AndyBees]

I don't know much about symptoms. He said it would lose power on a hill and gradually got harder to start until no start. He could not find anyone locally that would work on it. As I stated, I don't think it has been driven in several weeks. Also, I don't think he is the primary driver of the car, maybe his son! As I understand the son lives very close to his business and thus the low mileage for a 12 year old vehicle

It has the 1.8T engine auto trans with just over 101k miles on it. It does need a TB job. He did purchase the car new!

He called this morning stating that he was having it hauled to my uncle's shop. So, this afternoon or tomorrow, I will start the process of weeding out all those issues.

[IndyTom]

I would see if you can charge the battery sufficiently and see if the car will turn over and perhaps even start.

Prior to that just take off the top timing belt cover just to be sure the belt is still in one piece and no teeth are missing.

If it does start take it for a leisurely drive and see what she feels like. Since it has one of those troublesome O1M Automatic transmissions pay attention on how the car shifts and if you feel any slippage or hesitation.
If it has been sitting the PCV valve will be dirty and clogged. I would take it off and replace it with a new one. The PCV is a pain t get to since it is under the intake to the right of the Oil dip stick tube.

Good luck and I hope you get it running again.

[AndyBees]

Okay, the guy moved the car to my uncle's garage late this afternoon (uncle is a retired VW mechanic from the earlier days). My uncle called and said the TB looked just fine and was centered. The owner left the battery on slow charge last night, so it was hot today.

On my way to visit at the hospital this evening, I dropped by my uncle's garage. We cranked the engine over. It acts as if there is no compression..........so, there may be a TB issue for certain. Due to my circumstances, we could not work on it tonight. So, tomorrow we hope to dig into it and learn more. My uncle said if they had been trying to start it a lot the cylinders may be washed down with fuel......partially explaining the appearance of low compression. We did only one five second cranking (starting)effort. However, being it is an interference engine, if timing is the issue, it may have some damage!

I'll keep you posted!

[tech16024]

just curious.. where are you located?

[IndyTom]

Originally Posted by AndyBees

Okay, the guy moved the car to my uncle's garage late this afternoon (uncle is a retired VW mechanic from the earlier days). My uncle called and said the TB looked just fine and was centered. The owner left the battery on slow charge last night, so it was hot today.

On my way to visit at the hospital this evening, I dropped by my uncle's garage. We cranked the engine over. It acts as if there is no compression..........so, there may be a TB issue for certain. Due to my circumstances, we could not work on it tonight. So, tomorrow we hope to dig into it and learn more. My uncle said if they had been trying to start it a lot the cylinders may be washed down with fuel......partially explaining the appearance of low compression. We did only one five second cranking (starting)effort. However, being it is an interference engine, if timing is the issue, it may have some damage!

I'll keep you posted!

Pull a spark plug and test compression. Something is definitely not right. Did he take off timing belt cover to check the timing belt? Perhaps he only checked the accessory belt? I bet the belt skipped a couple of teeth and messed up the timing. But the only way to tell is to take the timing belt cover off and very carefully inspect the belt.

Keep us posted.

[AndyBees]

My uncle did nothing but remove the TB cover before I got there. We looked over the TB and it appeared to be fine. Since the Owner had been cranking the engine in attempt to start it, there was no reason for us to not crank it as well! If there was previous damage, we didn't hurt it anymore! Also, the day before, as I posted above, I did a scan with key on only!

Remember, this was a very quick look this evening!

Tomorrow, we will line up timing marks, etc., to determine the status of the relationship! If all is well, we will do a compression check!

My location is as said, USA. I got sort of Hacked a while back, so I changed info in my profile as well as PHOTO...

[Smileybug]

You might be able to get some local help from a fellow dubber if you actually post your location. You get hacked by more than just your location...

[AndyBees]

Originally Posted by Smileybug

You might be able to get some local help from a fellow dubber if you actually post your location. You get hacked by more than just your location...

Well, the problem is, I am the only person in my area that will work on these things (VWs). And, I actually prefer working on TDIs. I'm retired and not from auto mechanics. However, the few VW owners in the general area know that I have the experience, manuals, VCDS, tools, and access to a good garage. However, due to personal circumstances, I really don't have time to be doing the work. But, the dude is a long time friend going all the way back to high school days!

My uncle is from the old school. He worked on the air-cooled beetles, Vans, early diesels and other VWs. He is semi-retired now and still has a few "old" customers that he attends to! He had rather sit by the big pot belly stove and watch the TV hanging on the wall!

As I may have stated, this is my first experience with the 1.8T engine.

The guy did say that the auto tranny computer had been replaced. I suppose that was done some time ago and maybe under warranty. I did advise him of the potential expense if it does go south.

Another long time friend has a Jetta TDI with the auto tranny. It has 177k miles on it with no problems! I guess she is on borrowed time!

[Smileybug]

You still never know who could be around, even maybe even a bit of a drive away...just trying to help you out.

[IndyTom]

Originally Posted by Smileybug

You still never know who could be around, even maybe even a bit of a drive away...just trying to help you out.

I am with Smileybug. Hackers don't care about your location. They use algorithims that hack your Password on targeted sites. Happened to me before. Just change your Password to a longer sequence of Letter and Numbers to make it more difficult for them to hack. I used to have 6 character Passwords. Not anymore. Those are way too easy to hack. Go with something like 13 Characters or more and it will be very difficult to hack.

[Bratgirl]

He didn't get "hacked". Someone on here who has since been banned found a (very unflattering) picture of AndyBees somewhere and posted it on here. It was rude and uncalled for, but both parties involved were not very nice about it. Some people prefer to be private and I can respect that.

[Smileybug]

Must just not trust us NB peeps Plenty of his info posted in his profile at TDIClub...

[Bratgirl]

Hmmm, that's interesting. We must look suspicious or untrustworthy I guess. I might have to take back what I said earlier

[Smileybug]

Also, let me clarify that I wasn't trying to find out info on him, in case he gets all paranoid...with our recent TDI find, been browsing around. Saw him post and its got his general location. You can't be against our whole group just because one person was an idiot. But you also shouldn't have "unflattering" photos of yourself online if you don't want them seen...

[AndyBees]

Okay, no, I was not hacked as Bratgirl made clear (Maybe that was not the correct term). And, yes, when it all happened, I did not have an Avatar photo here (I don't think). But, my Avatar photo and another one, if I remember correctly, from the TDIclub, was copied and posted here in a Thread where I made some comments that someone didn't like (and I admit, I may have been a little harsh). So, at that time I went to all the web sites that I am a member and deleted info and photos. I was able to get photos deleted on sites that normally will not allow them to be deleted. And, after doing a little surfing of my own, I was not totally surprised. So, now, it's over and I am moving on!

Anyway, I did go to the TDIclub and re-posted the Avatar photo that I've used for quite some time. I have not taken the time to update here. Folks, my 87 year old father has needed my attention since last May. He has been in the hospital for the last 8 days. So, my day is already planned for me at dawn! He is the last of 8 brothers of which he and three of them went all over Europe during WW II (all come home).

__________________________________________________ _________

Now, back on subject!

This car belongs to the son of an old friend of mine. We went to high school and military together. The info about the car is more or less third hand....son to father to me!

Nope, there is no one in my General Area that works on VWs that he would take the car to. Also, he is aware of my personal circumstances. I live in Southeast Kentucky!

Okay, this afternoon, we confirmed that the timing chain jumped time on the Intake Cam. It looks to be off by about 40 to 45 degrees. It looks as if the lobes on #1 cylinder should be about straight up but are slow in time and pointing at about 9:00 O'clock. We set the crankshaft at TDC with the Camshaft Timing Belt Sprocket on the MARK. Then when we took off the Valve Cover .......the obvious was right there to see. Using the Bentley Manual, it was not rocket science to see the problem......reference marks, number of links between marks, etc.

So, a compression check showed 25 to 27 PSI across all cylinders. Dumping in oil made no difference. We did the compression check before removing the Valve cover.

The plastic tensioner was pretty much shot with pieces of plastic "flowing" off one side.

I guess here is the question, how much off or out of time can the Valves (in this case Intake Valves) and the piston not hit them? I do know it is an interference engine! But, at what point does it become out of time enough that contact occurs? With 25 psi compression, the valves are either almost closed or closed and slightly warped! We rotated the engine so we could "spin" all the lifters...no problem there!

I know of several places to shop for parts on-line. However, what do I use to compress the chain tensioner? The Bentley references a VAG tool specific to the job. Also, the Bentley says that both Cams, as well as the chain and tensioner, must be removed and re-installed "together".......that's the work sequence!

If this was my engine, I know what I'd do. But, what gets done is going to be the owner's call! He is knowlegable and experienced with the engine. About 30k miles back, he removed and replaced the head twice trying to get rid of a oil to coolant leak........turned out to be the oil cooler!

Comments welcome!

[VDubYah]

You have bent valves with the timing being off, At least 2 intake on each cylinder maybe all three. most likely some exhaust valve too. The exhast valves are sodium filled and kind of pricey. The tensioner tool is a little funny shaped piece of plastic and a "bolt that when screwed onto a place on the head losens the cam chain tensioner. The cam chain tensioner is also rather steep. The cam followers don't take much of a beating without damage. often you can't see it and if not replaced will fail in the rebuilt head with catastrophic results.

I would get a remanufactured head rather tahn rebuild that one. With a high milage car I would probablylook for a newer motor.
Sorry for the long post but wanted you to know

[AndyBees]

Originally Posted by VDubYah

You have bent valves with the timing being off, At least 2 intake on each cylinder maybe all three. most likely some exhaust valve too. The exhast valves are sodium filled and kind of pricey. The tensioner tool is a little funny shaped piece of plastic and a "bolt that when screwed onto a place on the head losens the cam chain tensioner. The cam chain tensioner is also rather steep. The cam followers don't take much of a beating without damage. often you can't see it and if not replaced will fail in the rebuilt head with catastrophic results.

I would get a remanufactured head rather tahn rebuild that one. With a high milage car I would probablylook for a newer motor.
Sorry for the long post but wanted you to know

I forgot to say, the engine has 111,904 miles on it!

The Exhaust Cam is not out of time. Only the Intake Cam is out of time. Thus, no way Exhaust Valves made contact with the pistons.

Yes, I definitely understand that a lifter will look just fine but have spider-web like cracks that are almost invisible! Been there and seen that with a TDI engine!

Well, with the Exhaust Cam and Crankshaft perfectly "in time" on the "marks" at Top Dead Center for #1 cylinder, the Intake Cam is off as discribed above. The the three lobes are slow in time and almost off the "raised" part of the cam. So, based on that, I'm thinking the contact has been very minimal and hopefully no damage to the pistons.

Remember, Intake valves are closed when the Crankshaft gets just past Bottom of the stroke. In this case they are still open and apparently are closing as the piston reaches TDC....and may in fact kiss the piston!

Well, as I said, if it were my engine, I know what I'd do! My local machine shop would do a valve job! But, as I said, it is his call (the owner). He was fully informed this evening!

I've already put together a parts list and made a few comparisons.

[IndyTom]

More than likely your bottom end should be okay. The only way to tell however is to take off the head. At the speed those valves are opening and closing I am sure that there are at least a few bent valves. I also would try and get a rebuilt head for the car. Probably cheaper than to do a complete valve job and replace everything in that head. Those cam chains are pretty pricey. But as you said it's up to the owner. He may just want to sell the car for parts and forget about putting more money into it.