Died on the Road

[Coloradobug]

Last night when I was driving my 2002 TDI Beetle it died all of a sudden and would not start again. Checked the fuses and they all seem fine.
Since it is a Diesel, I have no idea if it is getting power to the glow plugs Anyone has any idea what else to look for?
It has been extremly cold here in Colorado for the past few days but now it warmed up again so I am ruling the "gummed up Diesel" out.
Thanks

[Pizzaboy]

Hope it's not the timing belt. :-}

[Smileybug]

What is your mileage and have you had the timing belt changed out?
How is your battery?

What does the car do? Is it trying to start and just not catching?

[Coloradobug]

mileage is at 100,000 and we had the timing belt changed out at 60,000
battery is in perfect condition. Just bought it new.

The car turns over but there is no sign of it trying to catch

[DZLBUG]

We need more information. Did it stumble or stutter to a stop? Did it just shut off like you turned off the key? Any odd noises or other different behavior? How long since the fuel filter was changed?

As others have asked, how many miles on the car and has the timing belt and ALL associated parts been replaced? By whom and when?

Possible causes (in order of severity/cost, 1-4 are cheap and easy):
1) Frozen check valve in the fuel tank
2) Air leak in fuel lines
3) Gelled fuel or clogged fuel filter (dirty ones will ice over if there is any water in the fuel, even if the fuel is properly winterized)
4) Relay 109 - Power supply relay to the ECU
5) Timing belt related failure. Pistons crash into valves, head has to come off and be rebuilt/replaced. New TB kit and misc. assembly parts. Minimum $1400 in head work/parts from Frank's VW TDI's LLC...and prices go up steeply from there if not going through Frank. Labor varies.

Good luck, I hope this is something simple. More excellent information can be found over on the forums at Fred's TDI Page. TDIClub.com. VW TDI Enthusiast Community

[DZLBUG]

Originally Posted by Coloradobug

mileage is at 100,000 and we had the timing belt changed out at 60,000
battery is in perfect condition. Just bought it new.

The car turns over but there is no sign of it trying to catch

Okay...I missed this post while I was typing my reply. Who did the timing belt at 60k? Which parts were replaced and which parts used?

Glow plugs are not the problem, they are a cold weather starting aid only and are not a factor when the coolant temp is above 40F.

You need to see if the engine is getting fuel. Take a 17mm wrench and crack open one of the injector line nuts (on the injector) 1/2 turn. Crank the engine and see if any fuel sprays out.

When you turn the key on, does the glow plug light flash momentarily? If no glow plug light flash then you have a failed Relay 109.

[Coloradobug]

Did it stumble or stutter to a stop? [no] Did it just shut off like you turned off the key?[yes, turned it self off] Any odd noises or other different behavior? [no, I just couldn't keep my speed at 35mph] How long since the fuel filter was changed? [IDK]
The dealer told us that the timing belt was replaced at 60,000 but we did not go into details on this

[Pizzaboy]

Can it be a Crank sensor issue?

[DZLBUG]

Originally Posted by Pizzaboy

Can it be a Crank sensor issue?

Not on a diesel.

Originally Posted by Coloradobug

The dealer told us that the timing belt was replaced at 60,000 but we did not go into details on this

Uh-oh.

Where are you in Colorado? The best thing to do at this point is to see if the engine is getting fuel and to make sure Relay 109 works (glow plug light flash when key turned on). If that works and the engine gets fuel, the timing belt and associated components need to be checked.

Stay away from the dealer, if you let me know where you're at I may be able to recommend you to a competent mechanic.

[Coloradobug]

Thanks! The glow plug light is normal. I am located in Colorado Springs. I know that I need to stay away from the Stealership and use Johnny's on B-Street

[DZLBUG]

Originally Posted by Coloradobug

Thanks! The glow plug light is normal. I am located in Colorado Springs. I know that I need to stay away from the Stealership and use Johnny's on B-Street

I've never heard of Johnny's on B-Street, is that an indie VW shop or something? If they were a TDI specialist, I would have heard of them. I haven't so I have no confidence that they would know what they are doing with a TDI. Feel free to take it to them if you'd like to at least get an idea of what is wrong, but I would not recommend you let them do any involved work beyond the fuel system.

You could also try this shop:
European Performance Specialist
406 S. Sierra Madre St
Colorado Springs, CO 80903
(719) 475-1046, Loren

They are on the TDI Mechanics list over on TDIclub, but I cannot vouch for them with any certainty, you have to do your homework. Again, I'm not sure I would let them do a timing belt or any other major service as I have no assurance that they will do the job correctly. Many a TDI has been screwed up by dealer and "VW shop" alike. TDI's require special knowledge, attention, procedure and tools and unless a shop specializes in them it is best to stay away.

If this ends up being a failed timing belt you need to get the car to someone who knows what they are doing if you intend to get it fixed.

These are the guys I would recommend, they are not in Colorado Springs, but they are relatively close. It would be worthwhile to have the car towed to them.

TDIclub username: aNut
Anuthee Huffstetter
512.773.5212
anuthee@gmail.com
Lakewood
Colorado Diesel Land - Home

Steve Carroll
TDIclub username: SCarroll
Aurora, Co

[cep]

I would be surprised if it's the timing belt. First, you were driving when it quit. Had the belt let go, you would have undoubtedly heard a bunch of unwelcome racket.

Diesels only need fuel (at the right time) and adequate compression to run. Since it was already running, the odds are about 100% that compression is not the problem, unless ALL cylinders let go at once. In that case, see above reference to unwelcome racket. It didn't happen.

So, we are left with an absence of fuel. Fuel filters can clog, fuel can gel, etc. but it rarely (if ever) causes a light-switch, on/off type shut down of the engine. There will be a noticeable loss of power first.

I'm not a TDI expert but there HAS to be an electrically-controlled valve which, when energized, allows fuel to flow to the injection pump. My guess is, either this valve, or a relay which controls it, has removed the supply of electricity to this valve and the valve removed the supply of fuel to the engine.

One other thing: I think TDI engines have an anti-shudder valve which cuts off the flow of air to the engine. That is another thing to check, but I can't help but think that if that would have snapped shut while driving, it would have made a memorable noise.

Good luck.

[SilverDieselDemon]

Originally Posted by cep

I would be surprised if it's the timing belt. First, you were driving when it quit. Had the belt let go, you would have undoubtedly heard a bunch of unwelcome racket.

Diesels only need fuel (at the right time) and adequate compression to run. Since it was already running, the odds are about 100% that compression is not the problem, unless ALL cylinders let go at once. In that case, see above reference to unwelcome racket. It didn't happen.

So, we are left with an absence of fuel. Fuel filters can clog, fuel can gel, etc. but it rarely (if ever) causes a light-switch, on/off type shut down of the engine. There will be a noticeable loss of power first.

I'm not a TDI expert but there HAS to be an electrically-controlled valve which, when energized, allows fuel to flow to the injection pump. My guess is, either this valve, or a relay which controls it, has removed the supply of electricity to this valve and the valve removed the supply of fuel to the engine.

One other thing: I think TDI engines have an anti-shudder valve which cuts off the flow of air to the engine. That is another thing to check, but I can't help but think that if that would have snapped shut while driving, it would have made a memorable noise.

Good luck.

I would put money on the filter being clogged, Thermostatic Tee Seal Fail or Water leading us back to Fuel Filter. DZLBUG is right, 17mm to the injector Lines half turn @ the injectors. and turn over engine a few times tighten and crank. All of this of course after taking the timing cover off and inspecting the belt.
When was the last time you filled up, where, how much fuel did you purchase?

[DZLBUG]

Originally Posted by cep

I would be surprised if it's the timing belt. First, you were driving when it quit. Had the belt let go, you would have undoubtedly heard a bunch of unwelcome racket.

When timing belts or related components fail, causing the belt to jump time, there is often no noise at all. The engine just shuts off as described here. Even when the camshaft failed/seized on my engine, causing pistons to hit valves, there really was no noise either. It just shut off...no muss no fuss.

Originally Posted by cep

Diesels only need fuel (at the right time) and adequate compression to run. Since it was already running, the odds are about 100% that compression is not the problem, unless ALL cylinders let go at once. In that case, see above reference to unwelcome racket. It didn't happen.

Correct, this is a fuel or timing issue.

Originally Posted by cep

So, we are left with an absence of fuel. Fuel filters can clog, fuel can gel, etc. but it rarely (if ever) causes a light-switch, on/off type shut down of the engine. There will be a noticeable loss of power first.

Also correct, generally speaking. But it can often be a fast progression.

Originally Posted by cep

I'm not a TDI expert but there HAS to be an electrically-controlled valve which, when energized, allows fuel to flow to the injection pump. My guess is, either this valve, or a relay which controls it, has removed the supply of electricity to this valve and the valve removed the supply of fuel to the engine.

True, although I've never seen an instance of this occurring and causing the engine to shut-down while driving.

Originally Posted by cep

One other thing: I think TDI engines have an anti-shudder valve which cuts off the flow of air to the engine. That is another thing to check, but I can't help but think that if that would have snapped shut while driving, it would have made a memorable noise.

Again, this has never happened causing an engine to shut off while driving. The ASV sticking closed will sometimes cause a no-start condition, but that is generally due to a clogged up intake or something else making it stick. It is worth checking on now, but I don't see it as a cause here. It also would not create any "memorable" noises.

Even though the glow plug light illuminates now when switching the key on, it does not rule out a flaky relay 109.

I will say again, the best thing to do now is to see if the injectors are getting fuel when cranking. It is easy enough for anyone to do to crack one of the injector nuts loose 1/2 turn. You don't even need a 17mm wrench, a crescent wrench will work fine.

If fuel is getting to the injectors, then it is timing belt related and the car needs to get to a competent TDI mechanic.

[SilverDieselDemon]

Originally Posted by DZLBUG

When timing belts or related components fail, causing the belt to jump time, there is often no noise at all. The engine just shuts off as described here. Even when the camshaft failed/seized on my engine, causing pistons to hit valves, there really was no noise either. It just shut off...no muss no fuss.



Correct, this is a fuel or timing issue.



Also correct, generally speaking. But it can often be a fast progression.



True, although I've never seen an instance of this occurring and causing the engine to shut-down while driving.




Again, this has never happened causing an engine to shut off while driving. The ASV sticking closed will sometimes cause a no-start condition, but that is generally due to a clogged up intake or something else making it stick. It is worth checking on now, but I don't see it as a cause here. It also would not create any "memorable" noises.

Even though the glow plug light illuminates now when switching the key on, it does not rule out a flaky relay 109.

I will say again, the best thing to do now is to see if the injectors are getting fuel when cranking. It is easy enough for anyone to do to crack one of the injector nuts loose 1/2 turn. You don't even need a 17mm wrench, a crescent wrench will work fine.

If fuel is getting to the injectors, then it is timing belt related and the car needs to get to a competent TDI mechanic.

Amen.


Though a clogged filter will cause a stop/ Air in line/ no start. If lines are bled and car starts, fuel filter would be the culprit to a Diesel starved Pump.

[Coloradobug]

We actually brought the bug in to a Diesel shop yesterday and they discovered that was the timing belt. They qutoted $1,379 for belt, water pump, some other stuff. Once the new belt is on & they fire it up we'll know if any valves were damaged. More work may be needed.
Thanks all for your input!

[DZLBUG]

Originally Posted by Coloradobug

We actually brought the bug in to a Diesel shop yesterday and they discovered that was the timing belt. They qutoted $1,379 for belt, water pump, some other stuff. Once the new belt is on & they fire it up we'll know if any valves were damaged. More work may be needed.
Thanks all for your input!

What "diesel shop" do you have it at?

This is bad bad news. Any shop that is quoting you that much money for a belt job WITHOUT pulling the head is taking you for a ride. The head has to come off! Valves were damaged, you can be sure of that. On these TDI engines, the valves come straight down at the pistons. When piston/valve contact occurs, the valve doesn't really even bend. What happens is that the force of the impact "pancakes" the valve stem, weakening it greatly. The force then travels up the valve stem to the lifter and cam follower. The cam follower then mushrooms and cracks.

Here is the thing, they will throw the belt on...start up the engine and it will run fine. You won't know a thing is wrong until a follower comes apart, or until a damaged valve breaks off and plays ping-pong with the piston and the cylinder wall...causing severe and possibly unrepairable engine damage. This could happen in 14 miles or 14,000 miles, but it will happen. And when it does, you will be far away from that shop that did the work and they will have their $1400 for the timing belt work...which btw is about $500 higher than most TDI mechanics charge for the job.

You need to get this car to a competent TDI mechanic NOW! That $1400 can get you the head rebuilt, 100k mile TB kit, and all the parts needed to put it back together. Add in another $800 or so for labor and the car can be back on the road for another 300k miles or more.

Please call Anuthee or Steve up in the Denver area and get this done right.

[CoriBug]

Anuthee and the guy he works with are very competent TDI mechanics. John and Laura (cubbug) took their Golf TDI to them when it had problems while they were staying in Breckenridge. Also, for future problems, if you are in Northern Colorado, I can give you my mechanic's number. He did the timing belt, water pump, oil change and all the necessary components for $780.

[Coloradobug]

Alan's Automotive & Diesel Repair Specialists Inc

I checked with
European Performance Specialist
406 S. Sierra Madre St
Colorado Springs, CO 80903

and they quoted me $2300 and this includes rebuilding the head. I spoke to Alan's and they said they would match it.

[DZLBUG]

Call Alan's and ask them if there are any special tools that they use to install the timing belt. Also ask them what they use to check and set the injection pump timing. If they don't know how to respond or do not mention anything about a camshaft lock tool...do not let them fix the car.

Special lockdown tools and procedure must be used to install the timing belt properly. They also need to fine tune the advance on the injection pump timing for a well-running engine, this requires VCDS (Vag-Com)or other appropriate scan tool.

This isn't about getting the lowest price possible. It is about getting the job done right for a fair and honest price.