TDI Beetle not running

[blubugger]

From Dumbkauf [blubugger]
2000 New Beetle GLS TDI, auto, 90Kmiles

Ok...I got the dumbkauf problem of mixing gas with diesel solved...now another problem has arisen. Lately I have been having the Check Engine light [Mil] come on intermittently [at least twice. I have an Actron OBD2 analyzer, I reset the codes. It was a fault in the Glowplug Circuit A malfunction. The Glow plug light is operating correctly, the car started, although as of the last day or so...on the cold mornings [45-55 gegrees in Albuquerque] I had to do the turn key on sequence a few times to get the glow plugs warmed up enough to start the car. There were no check engine light on....once the car started, it ran like a top. So to troubleshoot any problems, I checked the voltage at all 4 of the glow plug feed thrus...all show ~12.6 Volts for the correct duration.
Checked the glow plugs...two read ~3.5 ohms, the other ones...very little resistance.
So this continued to the point that it would not start regardless.
So, I decided to replace the glow plugs [with Bosch]. Turned the engine over...glow plug light came on for the correct duration, also the key fob light went off as its supposed to do [so no problem with the secruity fob].....the car would not start....no check engine light came on...however, on the next try..the red battery light came on [left side of the instrument panel;]. Now, no cycling of the glow any amount will start and cranking will not start the engine.

Checked all fuses on battery distribution..all are good. Re-tightened all of them just to cover every angle. Checked the fuses on the side-dash access panel...engine control fuses #29, 32 and 34..all are good...no blown fuses.

So, I put the original glow plugs back in...same symptoms..everything cycles correctly, no check engine light come on, but it will not start.
Took the Diehard battery out and back to Sears..they said it checked out good. Put battery back in.....

I checked the voltage input to the alternator..12.6 volts at the large battery cable on the input connections.

So...the question is, [before I go and attempt to pry out the alternator by loosening up the AC compressor undoing the serpentine belt,etc. etc.] why, if this is a possible problem with the alternator....why does the car not run if the battery is in good shape [it cranks over well] ? Is there something that the alternator output keeps the engine running? Perhaps a fuel pump etc. Is there something that I am not addressing that has to do with the ECU or something else? Maybe the fuel tank sending unit?

any suggestions?

[Smileybug]

Have you actually checked the battery? Diesels need a lot of amps to get started, so if its starting to die at all, you might have a car thats struggling. The glow plugs take a lot of power. I know in our Mk1, out of the 90 amps from the battery, they take 50 to get going.

[blubugger]

Well...i did take it to Sears...watched the test...they said it was OK...its less than two years old....at any rate will keep that in mind...one thing that stumps me is thaton a warm day...65 to 70 degrees...the glow plugs arent really needed...the car should start. also...i re-connected the Actron OBD2 diagnostic came up with a bunch of codes... P0380 [glow plug circuit A malfunction, P0725 Engine Speed Circ uit malfunction, P1857 Manufacturer's control [transmission?] and also a P1850 ...also related to the tranny.

Phew!!!

so thanks...will keep looking...and if need be yank it into the service garage.

[DZLBUG]

Leave the alternator alone, it has nothing to do with this.

The car should start just fine between 45-55, even if the glowplugs weren't functioning at all. You have something else going on. A real common cause of hard starting when its cooler out is injection timing that is retarded. Another symptom of this is whitish smoke coming from the tailpipe during cranking and after the car starts.

Has the timing belt ever been changed on this car? If it is late in the interval or past it, this increases the likelihood that the injection timing has become retarded.

Work through this thread and see what you come up with.
Car won't start troubleshooting - TDIClub Forums

[kcfoxie]

Yeah i'm with DZLBUG here... this isn't a power issue. Timing is also my suspicion, how long have you owned the car? Is this your first winter with it?

Also can't rule out air in the fuel lines, have you re-primed the fuel system?

[Smileybug]

Another simple thing to check is the fuel filter. Might not be the issue with a newer diesel such as this, but we had some serious starting problems when we had a clogged fuel filter. Air in the lines is certainly another good thing to check.

[kcfoxie]

actually in the 40s temps if you use bio gelling MIGHT occur, so Smileybug may have a point there.

Also the shut off solenoid on the fuel pump may have a leaky seal putting air in the system (currently coping with this on my own car).

[MichelleRoze]

Well considering you just had the gas/diesel mix issue. You replaced EVERYTHING in the fuel assembly correct? Fuel filter, pump, cleaned out the tank everything?

That being said, isn't there a glow plug recall on this car? Might be time to get that checked.

[kcfoxie]

GP recall was for PD motors only. 2000 is still ALH, unless there was another recall I wans't made aware of.... he has steel plugs. It's the ceramic ones that are bad.

[MichelleRoze]

Ah ok. I wasn't sure which ones were affected. Everyone keeps asking me if I've had mine replaced, so I wasn't sure. I'm an ALH....

[DZLBUG]

Originally Posted by MichelleRoze

Well considering you just had the gas/diesel mix issue. You replaced EVERYTHING in the fuel assembly correct? Fuel filter, pump, cleaned out the tank everything?

He never cranked the car over after filling it with gas, so all he had to do was drain out the gas and refill with diesel.

I really am still suspecting an injection timing issue based on the (limited) info provided.

[jason m]

Originally Posted by blubugger

From Dumbkauf [blubugger]
2000 New Beetle GLS TDI, auto, 90Kmiles

Ok...I got the dumbkauf problem of mixing gas with diesel solved...now another problem has arisen. Lately I have been having the Check Engine light [Mil] come on intermittently [at least twice. I have an Actron OBD2 analyzer, I reset the codes. It was a fault in the Glowplug Circuit A malfunction. The Glow plug light is operating correctly, the car started, although as of the last day or so...on the cold mornings [45-55 gegrees in Albuquerque] I had to do the turn key on sequence a few times to get the glow plugs warmed up enough to start the car. There were no check engine light on....once the car started, it ran like a top. So to troubleshoot any problems, I checked the voltage at all 4 of the glow plug feed thrus...all show ~12.6 Volts for the correct duration.
Checked the glow plugs...two read ~3.5 ohms, the other ones...very little resistance.
So this continued to the point that it would not start regardless.
So, I decided to replace the glow plugs [with Bosch]. Turned the engine over...glow plug light came on for the correct duration, also the key fob light went off as its supposed to do [so no problem with the secruity fob].....the car would not start....no check engine light came on...however, on the next try..the red battery light came on [left side of the instrument panel;]. Now, no cycling of the glow any amount will start and cranking will not start the engine.

Checked all fuses on battery distribution..all are good. Re-tightened all of them just to cover every angle. Checked the fuses on the side-dash access panel...engine control fuses #29, 32 and 34..all are good...no blown fuses.

So, I put the original glow plugs back in...same symptoms..everything cycles correctly, no check engine light come on, but it will not start.
Took the Diehard battery out and back to Sears..they said it checked out good. Put battery back in.....

I checked the voltage input to the alternator..12.6 volts at the large battery cable on the input connections.

So...the question is, [before I go and attempt to pry out the alternator by loosening up the AC compressor undoing the serpentine belt,etc. etc.] why, if this is a possible problem with the alternator....why does the car not run if the battery is in good shape [it cranks over well] ? Is there something that the alternator output keeps the engine running? Perhaps a fuel pump etc. Is there something that I am not addressing that has to do with the ECU or something else? Maybe the fuel tank sending unit?

any suggestions?

double check you have clean connections on glow plugs, no resistance on the two would indicate they are not working.

[NewBeetleMechanic]

A digital laser therometer would be a good friend to you right now.

Also check the main ground cable on the bell housing.

[DZLBUG]

Originally Posted by jason m

double check you have clean connections on glow plugs, no resistance on the two would indicate they are not working.

A TDI with proper injection timing WILL start at 45-55 WITHOUT any glow plugs. It is worth him checking, but its not the cause of this problem.

[NewBeetleMechanic]

And I am sure you have checked your glow plug relay right? If you have, that digital thermo I was talking about would let you know if the glow plugs were shot or not.

[DZLBUG]

Originally Posted by NewBeetleMechanic

And I am sure you have checked your glow plug relay right? If you have, that digital thermo I was talking about would let you know if the glow plugs were shot or not.

A TDI with proper injection timing WILL start at 45-55 WITHOUT any glow plugs.

[NewBeetleMechanic]

Originally Posted by DZLBUG

A TDI with proper injection timing WILL start at 45-55 WITHOUT any glow plugs.

Im not pushing it that fast, Im too lazy for all that, plus Im fat.

In the old days they used ether, retarded the timing and turned the hand crank. I wonder if you could somehow hook a cold/ether start up to this car and it would start?

On second thought the glow plug relay wouldnt have anything to do with the glow plugs, that relay runs the rear wiper.

[DZLBUG]

What are you on man? I want some. I can't figure out if you're being halfways serious here or not.

45-55 degrees Fahrenheit, which is what the OP reported to be contributing to this problem. TDI glow plugs don't even come on with coolant temp above 45 degrees. So why are you blabbing on about glow plugs when they are clearly not the problem here?

Do you understand anything about TDI engines and about the dynamic injection timing adjustments? Most VW dealer techs know nothing of this. Usually when they do TDI timing belts the injection timing is way off and the IP pulley is usually maxed out in one direction. When the injection timing is retarded it will be hard to start when the weather is cool. There are also many other causes of hard starting, I linked to an excellent diagnostic thread in an earlier post here.

You never spray ether into a TDI, especially when it is cold enough for the glow plugs to be activated. Thats a great way to crack pistons, bend connecting rods or lift the head. Its bad on a TDI even when the glow plugs are not working. It typically ignites way too fast and does bad things to the engine.

[NewBeetleMechanic]

Originally Posted by DZLBUG

What are you on man? I want some. I can't figure out if you're being halfways serious here or not.

Im not being serious, I was tired last night when I said that. Seriously dont use ether with your Beetle. As far as the code, I would check the relay next.

[jason m]

Originally Posted by DZLBUG

A TDI with proper injection timing WILL start at 45-55 WITHOUT any glow plugs. It is worth him checking, but its not the cause of this problem.

I was addressing his glow plug circuit code. Have you given any thought to the idea that is may have been cooler than 45 degrees and the problem is actually the 2 glow plugs that show no resistance when checked? Don't get your panties twisted, have a good day.