Mpg

[alexander7567]

My wife has a 98 vw beetle gas engine. She gets a decent MPG rate.
I was having a discussion with my brother-in-law about the MPG vs. Diesel Price ratio if it would save money. So I was wondering how much MPG a diesel engine got.

[jason m]

I have a 2000 TDI with 179k miles on it. at 65mph on hwy i get as high at 47mpg, with my heavy foot and hwy driving I generally get 40-42 running 80mph and enjoying the corners. by the way i pay 3.00 a gallon for diesel in Dallas TX

[alexander7567]

That seems fairly decent. But i don't know if it would be worth it. My wife gets around 40 or more MPG. And they figured that up before she had her first ticket (To spell it out, lead foot lol). But i hear the turbo in the diesel engine and turbo sounds nice.

[alexander7567]

forgot to add.. As of yesterday, in Kentucky gas is around 2.85 a gallon.

[jason m]

I can tell you I drive an hour each way to work on the interstate and IF I keep it at or about 70-75mph my mileage is 45mpg day in and out. I enjoy my TDI especially when it comes to passing and hill climbing power. put it on cruise and it does not drop speed in the slightest and gives you a nice kick in the pants when you step into it. In addition the TDI is easily a 400K engine as long as you do oil changes and timing belts as specified intervals. No tune ups needed.

[Lew]

We just got back from Nashville where just before we left I topped of the diesel fuel at 2.989 and reset the trip indicator. I still have a couple of gallons left in the tank after driving around at home, and the trip indicator reads 665 yesterday. I might add a diesel engine has less moving parts, and will last much longer than a gas engine, that is if you do the regular maintenance. Her cruise is normally set around 73-75 on Hwy trips. You can see her average fuel milage on Fuelly.com in my signature.

[DZLBUG]

Originally Posted by alexander7567

My wife gets around 40 or more MPG.

There is no way that a 1.8T gets 40+ MPG. Check your math and make sure you are getting consistent fill-ups.

Originally Posted by Lew

I might add a diesel engine has less moving parts, and will last much longer than a gas engine, that is if you do the regular maintenance.

Yes it will last much longer than a gas engine when properly maintained. But I have to ask, just how do you figure it has less moving parts? Both have a crankshaft, 4 pistons and rods, only the valvetrain of a 1.8T has more to it since it is DOHC with more valves. If you compare a TDI to a 2.0, the TDI actually has more moving parts when you factor in the injection pump and 3 extra timing belt rollers.

[marvins_dad]

I don't know how folks get such good mileage with their TDI's. I'm guessing no AC and manual tranny?

The best I have ever seen with AC and Automatic is 40mpg from Roswell to Dallas. In town driving I get around 35, if I am lucky.

I'd hate to be going 65 on the Dallas freeways. That's almost like a standing still obstruction. LOL I used to travel the Bush 30 miles every morning and evening, so I used to get around 38 when I first got my TDI.

Just found a good TDI mechanic the other day and he said he got 600k miles out of his engine and auto tranny with routine maintainence. I have noticed that the engine might last that long, but every other part on the engine needs to be maintained or replaced regularly.

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Originally Posted by marvins_dad

I'd hate to be going 65 on the Dallas freeways. That's almost like a standing still obstruction.

ditto for me in Houston!

[jason m]

Originally Posted by MyOtherRidesAVette

ditto for me in Houston!

As I stated "if" I drive 65. I actually did it on I35W for 3 tanks in a row trying to break the 50mpg mark. got close many times but finally said the he** with it and started to enjoy the bug. It is manual and I do run a/c but not this time of year.

[kcfoxie]

I get 42-43 around town.
50-55 highway.

Your gasser getting 40 has to be a stick and driven gently. You'd get near 50 most of the time with the TDI. Your gas car at best will go 520 miles on a tank. The diesels can vent their tanks to make use of the full 15 gallons and go up to 780 miles (54mpg) before refueling.

Diesel > Gas
End of story.

I've driven from Raleigh NC to Austin TX and back at a strict 60mph, in a MkV Jetta, and averaged 49.8MPG the whole trip carring 60 gallons of fuel (that's about 300LB) and a spare engine (1.6L non turbo diesel VW golf engine). The best I've gotten with Peaches has been 730 miles, twice now, on the drive to Memphis. The key is set your cruise and don't touch a thing. I'll be doing an 899 mile trip this weekend and expect to fill the tank up once the entire time. 730 miles / 15 gallons = 47.25; that will fill a gasser's tank. But it won't go as far. I've had two gas Beetles and the Diesel, both AEG and the drive by wire 2.0's... they're far inferior to the TDI but they're cheaper to maintain. Belt job on a 2.0 is cheaper than a TDI, both need it at the same interval, both use 10K Oil change intervals, both use similar cost oils... but the TDI takes less money per mile in operation. Not to mention I dump my used motor oil in the tank after changing, along with a variety of other fluids that diesel's will burn.

My car turned 261,000 miles today. Original engine and transmission, replacement clutch and shifting linkage. Replacement body panels and interior... and hoses... and timing belt...brake pads and rotors... front brake pad and rotor job = $87 in parts. LOVE this car.

[cep]

Originally Posted by marvins_dad

I don't know how folks get such good mileage with their TDI's. I'm guessing no AC and manual tranny?

The best I have ever seen with AC and Automatic is 40mpg from Roswell to Dallas. In town driving I get around 35, if I am lucky.

Same here. Consistent 35-38mpg, '06 DSG.

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Originally Posted by marvins_dad

I don't know how folks get such good mileage with their TDI's.

It's commonly referred to as "puffing"!


Being in Dallas, you must know some Texas hunters!

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Originally Posted by kcfoxie

Diesel > Gas
End of story.

Initial Cost Diesel Vehicle > Initial Cost Gasoline Vehicle
Diesel Fuel/gal $$ > Gasoline/gal $$
Diesel Maintenance > Gas Engine Maintenance
Diesel Vehicle Speed < Gasoline Vehicle Speed

I don't think towing is a factor with a Bug!

And for most people who never see six digits on an odometer...
Short of 100k miles, diesel ownership cost can't be justified.

Unless of course, it's about a GREEN thing!

But, I hear ya' Foxie!

[kcfoxie]

Had a big write up, scrapped it.

TDI and 2.0 use same brakes, the oil change difference is at best $10 for the same 10,000 mile interval.

The TDI will get far more miles on a tank. On my math it's $400 a year cheaper to run a TDI at 3.14/gallon vs 2.89/gallon than a 2.0L Gasser.

The timing belt cost difference at boraparts is $150. I just did my front brakes to the tune of $90, which are the same brakes the 2.0L uses.

So I'll agree that the upkeep cost is more -- once you consider the $30 fuel every every two oil changes, etc. But when you're saving $400 a year in fuel cost the extra $150 in maintenance isn't that big a deal.

By my math someone going 32,000 miles a year would actually save $95 over the 2.0L assuming 10k oil changes, a timing belt being due, and paying for professional installation of brakes and timing belt (but doing own oil changes).

So, the TDI is and always will be, cheaper to operate in the long run when you factor in ALL the operational costs of the vehicle into the equation. Going by the cost of the timing belt (the only significant difference in upkeep expense) alone does not give a valid picture when you're getting 30% more miles per gallon of fuel.

Not only that, the diesels can run on a variety of things as fuel. Veg and motor oil, automatic transmission fluid, just to name a few. I've made it home on crisco and kerosene before in a pinch, the ability to do that when I'm in a spot justifies any upkeep the car may need.

I can speak from personal experience that the 98 TDI with all I've had break on it randomly from age (shift linkage, suspension, power steering hoses...) has been cheaper to maintain than my mother's 02 Focus. She's sunk $2000 into the Focus this year and I have hardly $1200 in the beetle including things like a subframe installation.

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Originally Posted by kcfoxie

I think you're wrong in your logic. Let me clear that up for you.

Maintenance costs:

The 2.0L and TDI and 1.8T all require belts at 100,000 miles (now, the days of the 60k and 80k belts are behind us). The 1.8T, I believe, uses a different brake hardware than the TDI and 2.0, thus TDI/2.0 routine upkeep for brakes is cheaper than the turbo gas.

So since the 2.0 and TDI have the same brake cost to repair, the next thing we'll look at is timing belt cost. I paid $305 for timing belt kit for my TDI. When I did my 2.0 (Years and Years ago) I paid $350 for someone's kit they were short selling cuase they totaled their car and this was a "steal" of a price. But this was 6+ years ago. So, from my account, the TDI's been cheaper to DiY the belt on than my gasser was years ago. That said I'd assume the belt hardware for a 2.0 is less than $305 from boraparts.

if you are incapable of DIYing a timing belt, labor rates aren't going to change gas to diesel, just the time. it takes a capable mechanic about 3 hours to do a TDI belt, and a 2.0 I am sure can be done in an hour. So yes the Timing belt will cost more. Probably twice as much. You win here.

Fuel economy. I've owned 2 2.0's of both engine codes and never got better than 34mpg out of them. My Jetta got 36mpg on its first tank combind before it was broken in -- city. The Beetles 34 was highway. 28 city if I was lucky, 24-26 was more normal. I kept decent records of this, as I drive a lot (35,000-42,000 annually) and keep records for tax purposes.

The TDI gets 40 city and upwards of 50 highway (manual transmission models only), so over the 32,000 miles i've put on my 98 TDI this year:

32,000 / 615 miles average tank = 52.03 tanks of fuel (at approx 14.5 gallons/tank)
32,000 / 322 miles average tank (2.0) = 99.37 tanks of fuel (at approx 13.2 gallons used - gas tanks vent, diesels are unvented)

at $3.14 a gallon the TDi cost $2368.92 for the year
at 2.89 a gallon the 2.0 costs $3790.77
A difference each year of $421.85 -- or the cost of a brake job. Or you just saved the cost of the 2 hours extra labor required for your timing belt (85hr*2=$170hr labor more than 2.0, still have 251 saved).

Oil changes. The TDI takes rotella, it goes 10,000 miles on a change, and you can do a top side change. meaning, with a vacuum pump and a wrench you're able to change the oil yourself. You don't need to lift the car. so an oil change costs me $30 with the oil I use but the recommended oil would cost about $50. I do 3-4 a year, so the rest of the fuel savings covering that maintenance too.

The oil change on my 2.0 seemed to cost me $30 to $40, so there isn't a huge cost difference in the upkeep here, except in time. having to have ramps or a jack and jack stands to get to the oil filter on the 2.0, that's a pain.

Breakdown of parts:
Boraparts 2.0 belt kit: $149.50
Est 1 hr pro install: 85
Rear rotors and pads (Autozone): 45.97
Front rotors and pads (AZ): 81.97
Pro Install (per end): 1/2hr ($42.50)
Oil change (filter and oil): $45 ($30 oil $12 filter, rounded up)
Total: 492.44


Breakdown of parts:
Boraparts TDI belt kit: $305.00
Est 3 hr pro install: 255
Rear rotors and pads (Autozone): 45.97
Front rotors and pads (AZ): 81.97
Pro Install (per end): 1/2hr ($42.50)
Oil change (filter and oil): $45 ($30 oil $12 filter, rounded up)
Total cost for complete tune-up: 817.94

So, yes, the upkeep alone is $325.50 more than the 2.0, but once we see that over the year I saved $421 in fuel over the year, the TDI is technically $95 and change cheaper to run in the same time frame.

you can adjust this to fit your annual mileage, but I fail to see how the 2.0 is really any cheaper. if you take 3-4 highway trips a year the TDI pays for itself before the first belt job. I mean, again, the oil and brakes are nearly identical in cost between the 2.0 and TDI. The 1.8T has a shorter change interval than the TDI and 2.0 for oil, and more expensive brakes.

So for the purpose of this discussion, I think the TDI is the clear winner. At least if we're speaking about manual versions of both cars.

As for highway speed.... I'm pulling 47-48 at 70-75 and getting 50+ running 60-65 which is the posted speed limit. I tend to set my cruise in any car to 100km/h and leave it, which is why I get the 54-55mpg trips so frequently. My jetta can get a 775 mile tank and my beetle's gotten 740 miles. They're a little different in weight and design, but running the same constant speed nets the economy. If you run your 2.0 at 60 straight it might get a 410 mile tank. might.

I knew this would get your dander up a little and spark some friendly banter.
On the subject of spark plugs, 2.0 has 2.5 sets in 100k miles, remember that's what we're basing this on, the firsr 100k. TDI, glow plugs, NO CLUE, although I'm guessing not, as my manual shows no service of these.
Timing belt, none indicated on a 2.0 thru 105,000 miles.
Fuel filter replace on TDI, every 20k, lifetime on the 2.0
Water Separator, drain, every 10k TDI.

Btw- check your math, I think the fuel cost difference is $1421.00 not $421.00 if your math to that point is correct. To your favor! LMFAO

Then there is the intial cost difference, less resale value difference, gotta be something.

And I think in fairness, services have to be compared at retail.

I'll agree with the mpg on the 2.0 but your mileage on the TDI is significantly higher than what I am reading from anybody else. (We call that "puffing"! LMFAO x 2)

You could very well be right, and I've never driven a TDI to be able to compare performance.

I can tell you the numbers don't work, on GM, Ford & Dodge trucks. I know, not the same thing. You don't buy diesels in those brands for operating costs, you my them for towing capacity.

And I thought I was the only one who kept detailed records (so easy today on a spread sheet), mine are right down to date, time, gallons and odometer reading of every fill-up! lol

MORAV

[Tico4Life]

I have driven a few diesels, and owned a few including Mack tri axle dump trucks. My Dodge RAM which I bought brand new in 06 now has 123000 miles and its math goes like this: initial cost over a hemi gas engine $7,000 (how long to get that back really?) mpg over a hemi 5 to 7 at the most (I don't care how much you -and by you I mean anybody- lie or puff about your mileage; you car or truck does not perform miracle mileage per gallon of diesel fuel. Maintenance cost wise I have to say a well cared for diesel engine will last more than a gas engine but when push comes to shove and you have to do serious repairs such as fuel injectors or pumps, well you will be confronted with a very ugly truth and that is diesels being much more expensive to fix than gas engines and parts being very expensive to buy as well. As sated above diesel is a performance factor (for torque not speed) for towing, hauling and heavy duty work. Also there are differences such as spark plugs which are non existing in diesel motors since combustion occurs not from ignition by a spark but rather heat by compression but on the diesel you have more fuel filters, more chances of engine and fuel pump/injectors damage if you get water in your diesel fuel for not keeping up with filters and pre-filters, etc. Some ppl make it seem like they can run their diesel cars on just about any liquid other than diesel, but that's far from the truth. Kerosene lacks the much needed lubrication for the fuel pump and the injectors. It's ok to mix it in a low ratio and that actually reduces the amount of blowby if you have any, but it is very dangerous to run a diesel motor on kerosene and not only that but more expensive on a per gallon basis at least here in NJ.
IMHO the "cheaper" cost of operation of diesels vs gasoline engines is a mirage, other that at the pump you don't really see a big diference specially not in the long run. 250K miles is not a lot for a Diesel or at least if you compare to a gasoline engine which to me at 250K miles is hanging by a thread.

Brakes, transmissions and electronics are the same for the most part in both vehicles. I am often told that my truck will over last a Dodge Ram with a gasoline engine, but that is a half truth, because the rest other than the motor is the same on 2500 HD trucks such as transmission, rears, bushings, rotors and everything else.

So simple economics, at $3.19 x gal of diesel vs $2,85 for regular in my town, all things being equal the $ difference between diesel and regular usually stays close so it has cost me $0.19 per mile as opposed to my friends truck which has a hemi engine and averages 11 miles per gallon and his cost is $.25 per mile. So 123K miles with a diesel is $23,370 and in a hemi equipped 2500 truck is $30,750 so It took me 123K miles and four years to make up for the difference in fuel cost by paying the $7K extra for the cummins diesel but only because I drive stupid distances to work.

If I was a normal person... no wait, let me rephrase that... if I drove more normal or average distances to work (that sounds better lol) it would have taking me 10.5 years to make up the initial engine cost difference between a gas and a diesel based on fuel price vs mpg consumption.

Wait, am I doing this right...OMG, I can not believe I spent that much money in fuel in 4 years.... I'm going to be sick.
And, on top of that my oil changes take twice the amount of oil that the Hemi.

I still love diesel VW's don't get me wrong... actually I love diesel engines period, but the "savings" are not what they seem when you take every factor into consideration and you are not really missing much by not having a diesel. Remember I own a few so this is not jealousy speaking

[kcfoxie]

Unless you consider 43 mirage miracle mileage, no it doesn't.

The folks who run 55 constantly and can get 60mpg (thats about 800+ miles per fill) are the crazy ones.

600-700 is normal for a TDI. 600 with city driving and 700 with highway at lower speeds.

Fuelly.com backs this up rather well, I also have a time lapse of a drive from Raleigh to Tupelo on a single tank in my jetta here: YouTube - YES WE CAN do 42+MPG! (675mi time lapse Jetta TDI)

Yes only I'd be so crazy as to record a time-lapse of a drive because I have coworkers who don't believe the car can go 600+ miles before refueling on such a small tank.

Also it should be noted that Mk5-later Diesels (1) use auto nozzles (lower flow) and (2) have non-vented tanks. Mk4s (all diesel beetles) have a vent that can be deflated giving you almost 16-gallons of fuel capacity. MANY 700-milers have deflated the bladder in the tank.

And if you're like me you fill up to the neck every single fill so you know that the foam (diesel's biggest annoyance) isn't affecting your readings.

[Tico4Life]

Originally Posted by kcfoxie

Unless you consider 43 mirage miracle mileage, no it doesn't.

The folks who run 55 constantly and can get 60mpg (thats about 800+ miles per fill) are the crazy ones.

600-700 is normal for a TDI. 600 with city driving and 700 with highway at lower speeds.

Fuelly.com backs this up rather well, I also have a time lapse of a drive from Raleigh to Tupelo on a single tank in my jetta here: YouTube - YES WE CAN do 42+MPG! (675mi time lapse Jetta TDI)

Yes only I'd be so crazy as to record a time-lapse of a drive because I have coworkers who don't believe the car can go 600+ miles before refueling on such a small tank.

Also it should be noted that Mk5-later Diesels (1) use auto nozzles (lower flow) and (2) have non-vented tanks. Mk4s (all diesel beetles) have a vent that can be deflated giving you almost 16-gallons of fuel capacity. MANY 700-milers have deflated the bladder in the tank.

And if you're like me you fill up to the neck every single fill so you know that the foam (diesel's biggest annoyance) isn't affecting your readings.

No, I was not referring to your specific post, however I can tell you that I don't go by the computer readings nor by tank capacity but by fuel pump receipt and no, I don't always fill to the top, I always pay with a credit card and around here there is a $75 limit, if you need more than that they have to run a second bill and thats annoying. My readings are constant, lower mpg's in winter for the obvious reasons or obvious for the one that knows his diesel engines, so the foam does not usually affect me. Now as far as deflating vents or whatever, fuel consumption is not affected by tank capacity buddy, we are talking about Miles Per Gallon not miles out of a tank, that's not how its measured. I have read posts on the Cummins forum I belong to from ppl that claim 28 and 32 mpg on a stock truck identical to mine and that is just not possible, I have a performance chip with 5 settings from milage to race mode and between milage and tow, and so forth there is hardly a single mpg difference. Now I am not comparing a 5.9 litter Cummins to a vw beetle diesel. If my gas NBC gets 28 to 30 with an easy foot I don't doubt you mpg's but as said before there are ppl exaggerating mpg's on diesels all across the country and I just know better. 42 mpg sounds reasonable as I said for your size car, but much more than that on a stock car is what I call a mirage, sorry if you felt offended by my post but if you read it again might understand it better. It is not my first diesel and my point was more inclined towards wheter is that much better to buy a diesel if you are looking to save money.
Best regards.

[kcfoxie]

I don't know about a Dodge truck but our Jeep SUV got 30 on the highway. But it was a 4-cyl. I've heard some Ford people say 22-23 and I can believe that at a steady roll without a load, but yeah anything over 24 in a heavy truck is smoke and mirrors. With you on that.

Miles per fill resonates a lot stronger than miles per gallon, because in this country we're incapable of doing simplistic math.

If I say I spend $38 and go 710 miles, people listen. If I say my car gets 53mpg it washes over them. The Prius "can" do that, in the city, and go a maximum of 520 miles on it's limited fuel tank. I need range, thus I need a real fuel tank. 15-18 gallons = I fill up twice a month. 10 gallons = I fill up once a week.

The idea is that MPG + capacity = you can miss buying fuel during short term spikes and save a little long term.

But when I look at the fuel cost I pay per year averaged out, it's amazing to me. If you're writing mileage off the TDI earns up to 30-cents a mile depending on model and your level of involvement with the upkeep. Transmission, too, plays a big role. The automatics will never be as efficient unless you're pure highway and few of us ever are.