Newbie considering purchase

[suedehead88]

Hi. I'm considering purchasing a TDI Beetle and am beginning to get a little concerned about reliability. I already know to steer clear of automatics. This will be my first VW and first TDI. I love the look and love the idea of what having a diesel can bring. This will be my only vehicle and one that I need to rely on for work, and in a year, school. Any advise out there?

[SixChuter]

Lots of reliable TDIs out there with manual transmissions. I'd say go for it. Welcome to the Org. Stay in touch and keep us updated on your search.

[suedehead88]

Thanks for the encouragement. I have found one about 4 hours from me and am hoping to be able to check it out soon. It's exciting to me each time I find the potential "one".

[Tico4Life]

I don't know much about Td iBeetles, but enough about diesel engines. Good to know you're looking for a bug. Let us know where about you are located and we'll keep an eye 4 u. I drove 100 miles to pick mine up.
Good luck searching and welcome

[DZLBUG]

Where are you located?

Reliability is not an issue at all when properly maintained. Are you interested in doing any work on the car yourself? If you aren't the DIY type (or don't have the time/tools/space then you are going to need the services of a COMPETENT TDI mechanic. Not the dealer. Not an indie VW mechanic. Not a general mechanic. You need a TDI specialist. If you tell me where you're at, I can point you in the right direction.

Budget an extra $700-$800 for a timing belt change right away. Whatever the seller tells you, don't believe it unless you can verify. Get it done completely (100k TB, water pump, tensioner, 3 rollers, stretch bolts) right away by a competent mechanic who has all the lockdown tools and VCDS.

If the intake hasn't been cleaned, it is going to need it. Throw another $100-150 on top of the TB change for that. Also consider having the EGR blocked off to eliminate any future intake clogging, just beware that you will have a CEL as a result, that would need to be tuned (or try the Narf mod) so that it doesn't come on. If it has the original clutch/flywheel, beware of a possible DMF failure at some point. Easily remedied with a SMF clutch kit.

If you are close to a competent TDI mechanic, I would strongly suggest taking any prospective car there for an inspection.

And last but not least, check out the forums at Fred's TDI Page. TDIClub.com. VW TDI Enthusiast Community for good people, great mechanics, and lots of excellent info.

[SixChuter]

Originally Posted by suedehead88

Thanks for the encouragement. I have found one about 4 hours from me and am hoping to be able to check it out soon. It's exciting to me each time I find the potential "one".

It will be even better when you finally find "THE" one. If you have to travel to get your car you will enjoy the trip. When I finally found Gandalf, he was 625 miles away. We were good friends by the time I got him home. Keep us posted and good luck on your search.

[suedehead88]

I am located just north of Charlotte. I have already found the TDI mechanics list on TDIClub.com. There's one about 20 minutes from my house. I'm not sure about a mechanic near where the potential car is though. I will have to look into that. I was hoping for one a little closer to home for the ease of the pre-purchase inspection, but I'm sure it will all work out just fine.
I am definitely interested in doing work on the car myself. I will have to learn quickly.
I appreciate the advice of having the TB, water pump, etc. taken care of immediately. That had not crossed my mind. Certainly something to consider.
I appreciate the welcome....and my mind is more at ease with this decision.

[cep]

It is not all plusses with a TDI; there are minuses as well.

Fuel costs considerably more than gasoline now and has for quite some time. It shows no signs of changing. Many people boast of getting 50mpg or more. Don't be surprised if you get 40.

The TDI is a more complex engine than a 2.0 gasser having more, expensive parts such as a turbo. They're fine when they're not in need of repair--but if they do need repair, get ready to part with some cash.

[LandsVW]

I was going to add the part about the timing belt. I bought one, 1999 version, was assured it had been changed. Looked a the receipt, the price didn't look right. I called previous owner, then their mechanic, and sure enough they had changed the serpentine belt but not the timing belt. Soooo... The car has 98k on it; the belts don't last much longer than 60-80k, from what I understand. The old belt was cracked and frayed. I was very lucky... Anyway, mine gets an honest 44mpg every where I go; doesn't seem to care how I drive, or in the city etc. Even though the price of diesel is 15 cents more than gas, it's a huge (more than 2X as much)savings over my 21mpg minivan. I LOVE the car. yes, they can have some problems. They sometimes have a hard start issue, but I did a modification and fixed that problem for no money, just time and research. Lets face it, it's a 10 year old car w/ 100,000 miles on it. I look at all the junky American 10 year old cars, and count my self fortunate... LOL Not to mention the time honored 'slug bug' game is played by my family every time we go somewhere. Never seems to get old. happy motoring, L

[kcfoxie]

Originally Posted by cep

It is not all plusses with a TDI; there are minuses as well.

Fuel costs considerably more than gasoline now and has for quite some time. It shows no signs of changing. Many people boast of getting 50mpg or more. Don't be surprised if you get 40.

The TDI is a more complex engine than a 2.0 gasser having more, expensive parts such as a turbo. They're fine when they're not in need of repair--but if they do need repair, get ready to part with some cash.

I have 263,000 miles on my stock turbo charger. It hasn't failed yet and it's a first generation 1998 TDI. What you need to be worried about are expensive fitted lines -- like the $284.98 power steering fluid return line. Mine finally gave out on me at the tail end of 2010. I also replaced the shift linkage on top of the transmission (literally broke off), that was $208 in Memphis. My timing belt was $305 and about 10 hours of my time at a friend's garage. Top-side oil changes are great.

Depending on your commute, your fuel economy will differ. A 90HP non-PD engine (PDs are all 100HP) will get no less than 40 in a manual application unless something is really wrong. Having put 33k miles on this old car of mine, I can say that with confidence. I can get up to 55highway but 48-50 is far more common. My Jetta, in comparison, gets about 46-48 average for the highway (it is a PD). Can you run 60-65mph for long periods of time? If so, you can get 700 mile tanks, too.

Dollar for dollar diesels are cheaper to operate. I've had 2 2.0's and they never got better than 33 highway. Never. My first tank in the TDI Beetle was 41 and it was a partial tank.

Oh, and I'm in Raleigh. My bf lives down south and I will be passing thought the Charlotte area a lot -- if you see the multicolored black/silver/white beetle that's me.

Just for those who says diesels cost more....

My front brakes cost $30 per rotors and $20 for the pads. One-time tool cost of $50. Rear brakes are $18 a rotor and $20 for the pads. The same cost as the 2.0L for DIY. The timing belt cost $305 (boraparts) vs $150 (boraparts) for the 2.0, the labor involved will be about twice as much too. So expect a $2000 timing belt job every 100k (or see if you can strike a deal up with a Chapin, SC TDIClub GTG for much, much less).

15 gallon tank (unvented, or vent is disabled - diesel does not expand like gasoline, this is a mod you have to do) * 40mpg avg = 600miles * 3.15/gal(gasbuddy/raleigh pricing) = 47.25 fillup / 0.07875 cents a mile
14 gallon (gas tanks are vented) * 28mpg = 392 * 2.90 (gasbuddy/ral pricing) = 40.60 fillup / 0.103571429 cents a mile

The TDI is 3 cent cheaper per mile, with a 25-cent premium. What no one is saying is diesel will drop in the spring once home heating oil season ends, but gas prices aren't affected by that and will stay high. This has occured every year for the past 5 years I've owned a diesel.

Do you have the ability to write off mileage on your taxes? 51-cent a mile reimbursement means you start making money on your driven miles.

Also oil changes $10 filer and about $30 in oil, using a Pella extractor and a wrench you can do a top-side fluid change without ramps and generally without getting too messy.

TDIs are the way to go.
One last word on repairs. Lets say the turbo does go. You can get another one for about $300. Plenty of people have stock ones from upgrades, and I'm looking at a Holset that retails for $300 to go big turbo with my own car. $300 is the magic number. If you can put $300 every quarter back for an unexpected age-related repair... you'll be fine. So far as I know I'm on original injection pump and nozzles, nothing in the records I got with the car showed anything more than standard upkeep was done. I dropped $900 for a new suspension and complete front end rebuild, but that's all I did upon getting the car. I still have a random camber issue to sort out, but it hasn't bothered me enough to press the issue.

I would advise dropping the $ for an alignment BEFORE purchase. If the camber is out of wack, demand a lower price. I killed both front tires at Tail of the Dragon last year over this issue (of course, had I paid better attention to the wear on the tires.... live and learn).

[LandsVW]

My only comment on the last post would be, that 2000$ for a timing belt change is a little high. I found a very reputable mechanic, TDI specialist, here in Kentucky that will change it for around 500$ plus the 300$ kit - which, btw, changes the pulleys, water pump, belt and etc. to make sure nothing bad ever happens. I do it myself, but that's another story...

I agree with that post about the mileage. The mileage should almost always be above 40 mpg with one of these. My non TDI 1984 Jetta got 45-47 all the time, but it was also a gutless wonder (52 hp). However, it ran like a champ and never let me down.

Yes, I was shocked to see how cheap the brakes and things like that were. VW parts, since they come out of Mexico or S. America seem to be much cheaper than equivalent Japanese car parts. American car parts may be a little cheaper, in my opinion.

[kcfoxie]

Oh wow that's a good price for the timing belt. I saw $2000 cause I know someone who paid about that for her belt (this was in 2004 tho)... so I figure that's a safe "overinflated" figure to use. But $900-$1100 seems more the going cost for a belt job on an ALH TDI.

My dad's 86 Golf 1.6 has always gotten about 48... and it has something like 700,000 miles on it. That thing just won't die!

[Smileybug]

Nice to see another Mk1 Jetta owner We have a TD '84. Just rebuilt it so we'll have to see our MPG numbers. Never hit over 40 before that though so we'll see.

I will also say that diesels are pretty great, but they really aren't for everyone. It also depends on the kind of driving you do. If you are doing just city driving, the diesel isn't really worth it...where they shine is on the highway. And if you don't do a lot of miles in a year, I wouldn't get one either. Diesels aren't the answer for everyone.

[suedehead88]

Thanks for all of this great info. It's all been incredibly helpful. This is the first time I have searched for a specific car. I've always just picked something out that was in my price range on a lot. This is proving to be much more exciting!! I'm learning a great deal and appreciate all of the insight here. I'm lucky that I have a car-savvy fiance to teach me along this journey...although, I think I'm driving him a little crazy right now with all the beetle talk. I now have 2 prospects. Just playing the waiting game on those now.
I did test drive a 1998 5-speed today. I was a little surprised that the gear shifter felt so sloppy. It felt like there was a lot of play and it had a long throw. Is this to be expected in all of the 5-speeds? I also think the clutch was going (not too surprising for the age and mileage). This one is not on the table, but am curious if this is to be expected in all of them. It's the first 5-speed I've driven...they are proving to be more challenging to come by than the automatics.
Thanks again for the great info.

[kcfoxie]

98s and early 99s have a different shifter setup that, i think, is sloppier. It can be rebuilt to take some of the slop out, a late 99 or 2000 model would be better with the shifter 'slop.'

[cep]

What no one is saying is diesel will drop in the spring once home heating oil season ends, but gas prices aren't affected by that and will stay high. This has occured every year for the past 5 years I've owned a diesel.

There is no predictability in fuel prices any more, either for gas or diesel. For instance, right now stocks are high, driven mileage is lower than normal, yet prices are higher than usual. The old 'heating oil' explanation doesn't work any more.

I've paid as much as 50 cents more per gallon for diesel than unleaded and this is getting to be a regular occurrence. At those kinds of price differentials, the diesel advantage disappears in a hurry.

This country seems to be hell-bent on keeping light-duty automotive diesels from ever becoming more than a novelty. Europe embraces diesels. Europe has far higher population density, yet very few of the diesel models sold in Europe meet our assinine EPA requirements. If the European diesels are so filthy, you'd think the Europeans would be choking to death on the fumes and particulates. That doesn't seem to be the case.

[kcfoxie]

Originally Posted by cep

There is no predictability in fuel prices any more, either for gas or diesel. For instance, right now stocks are high, driven mileage is lower than normal, yet prices are higher than usual. The old 'heating oil' explanation doesn't work any more.

I've paid as much as 50 cents more per gallon for diesel than unleaded and this is getting to be a regular occurrence. At those kinds of price differentials, the diesel advantage disappears in a hurry.

This country seems to be hell-bent on keeping light-duty automotive diesels from ever becoming more than a novelty. Europe embraces diesels. Europe has far higher population density, yet very few of the diesel models sold in Europe meet our assinine EPA requirements. If the European diesels are so filthy, you'd think the Europeans would be choking to death on the fumes and particulates. That doesn't seem to be the case.

As its been said on TDI Club, until Diesel is 1.25 more per gallon than gasoline -- and given diesel drives ALL forms of commerce around the world and this won't happen by the powers that be -- diesel will ALWAYS be cheaper to operate in a light duty vehicle. If you can't convince yourself of that, then sell me your car and go get a gasser. I don't know a single person who has gone from diesel to gas and not come back to a diesel. Truck or car.

Diesel failed in the USA because Americans are lazy and require an automatic, outside Mercedes, no one really had an automatic diesel in the 80s. Most people couldn't afford a Mercedes back then. Ford had several 50/60mpg EPA rated Diesels in the early 80s, manual only, they didn't sell. GM's crappy V8 gas to diesel experiment further destroyed the reputation for it in the US. At that time no one wanted to trust a foreign maker, and if GM can't do it no one can. So, really, it failed here because Americans got it wrong, and Americans like luxury over economy.

In any other car, I freak out to see 160 miles to a HALF tank. That's barely a quarter tank for me. But 300 miles is the magic number to most, that's insufficient for my needs. I did that for many years, and finally got my hands on two cars that meet my needs. Not everyone needs a 600-700 mile range, but I think everyone likes filling up less often. I also like having my choice of fuels to use. If the cost is getting to you, starting homebrewing. Mix used motor oil. You've got options. I've done all of these things. Hell for a two week stint right after I was shot down on a marriage proposal, I was so broke I was running a motor oil/atf mix in my car and STILL got 38mpg... it smelled bad, wasn't good for the environment, but I got to work. At the end of the day, that's all I and everyone else really cares about truth be told.

And that car is my oldest diesel, still driving, and I'm not afraid that it's pump is going to fail because it's built on solid technology that Audi's been pumping out since the late 80s. The 90HP TDI is the most robust engine VWAG has ever produced, and probably ever will.

[LandsVW]

Yeah, Diesel in America is a really weird topic. Of course, it didn't help that Chevy tried to make diesel engines out of gas engines back in the early 80's and they were horrible. However, my dad had a Chevette diesel that went over 300,000 - engine made by Isuzu I think. He also had a Diesel Ford Ranger that got 40 mpg pretty regularly, with a Mitsubishi Turbo Diesel in it. Americans are spoiled a little with the cheaper gas prices than Europe, so I guess that changes their perspective on diesel. Also, somehow the particulate and smog issue became part of the EPA's agenda. Don't really know why. We have 1000's of diesel trucks on the highways, and don't see a problem w/ either...

Oh well, I for one, enjoy the heck out of my diesels. I have had 3 NA diesels; 1 84 Jetta, 1 86 Golf, and 1 81 Rabbit. I have 'upgraded' to the TDI New Beetle which I'm absolutely loving. Ride quality, knowing that there is an airbag to help protect me, interior head room and leg room, etc. etc. not to mention 45mpg. Sure, not for everyone. However, I can't afford a 25,000$ Prius either (which I would buy if I could - I'm not prejudice LOL); has anyone seen the predicted price of the batteries those things will require in about 6-10 years? My car is already 10 years old; 103,000 miles, and I paid 4000$ for it - I guess I could buy a Geo Metro with a 3 cyl gas engine (50mpg I think), but they're a tin can and are also 10 years old or so at this point.

I guess it's a numbers game. A Prius (or TDI) at 25,000$ getting 50-60mpg vs. a 1000$ F-150 for 2000$ getting 15mpg. A person could drive the F-150 a LONG way to make up the difference. However, if Gas/Diesel goes to 5-7$ per gallon in the next few years, well, the Diesel/Prius owners are going to be doing pretty well I'm thinking... Just thoughts! Cheers! L

[LandsVW]

Yeah, (funny we both mentioned the Chevy horrible diesel at the same time) it would take the price of diesel to be 2X+ the price of gas to make it equivalent to my 21mpg minivan. So, I'm actually running down the road at an equivalent of 1.50 to 1.75$ a gallon when I'm driving the Diesel when I leave the minivan in the garage. right now it's about .07$ per mile vs. .15$ a mile If I have my calculations right. drive 500 miles? 35$ vs. 75$. adds up pretty quickly.

[kcfoxie]

Originally Posted by LandsVW

Yeah, (funny we both mentioned the Chevy horrible diesel at the same time) it would take the price of diesel to be 2X+ the price of gas to make it equivalent to my 21mpg minivan. So, I'm actually running down the road at an equivalent of 1.50 to 1.75$ a gallon when I'm driving the Diesel when I leave the minivan in the garage. right now it's about .07$ per mile vs. .15$ a mile If I have my calculations right. drive 500 miles? 35$ vs. 75$. adds up pretty quickly.

I did a cost comparison of my mom's 02 Focus at 100k vs my 06 Jetta TDI at 100k. The Focus had more repair costs and ran about 23 cents a mile, the Jetta operated at about 14 cents a mile. The Focus is in every way cheaper - price, fuel used, regular upkeep, etc.. but the more expensive diesel will not only outlast it, it's cheaper to run in the long run.

Of course this is on NEW car pricing. If you're throwing $5k down on a used car, you're just being dumb to ignore the diesel. I gave $3500 for my 200k TDI... I'll see it past 500k I'm sure. I couldn't have gotten a decent Honda for what I gave for the Beetle. The ball game changes --drastically-- when "new" is taken out of the equation, or you get into specific body types (like wagons).