Potential problem with cold start TSB????

[slpopp]

Friday morning and Saturday morning the temp was -14F.

On Friday the car started after 3 attemps, but there was black soot coming out of the tailpipe while the engine was turning over. The soot quit as soon as the engine was running without the aid of the starter. This was with a tank of #2 deisel (possibly winterized) with the Powerservice additive at the recommended ratio. Stopped by dealer and asked them if anyone else was having problems, they said no. I originally also though that the black soot inside the car was from a wire on the car burning, I didn't know it came from the tailpipe. It was dark out and I learned a lesson, DON'T LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN WHEN STARTING IT IN THE WINTER. Black soot everywhere in car.

CORRECTED 2-20-06 - The small soot balls were on the dash and on the front seats. Strong winds that morning.


Dealer recomended putting in half a tank of #1 fuel, I shouldn't have any problems then, and I did this. Still adding the Powerserive additive for lubrication. I put about 65 miles on the tank before I shut it off for the night.

On Saturday the temp was again -14F. But this time it took between 12 and 15 attemps (and a couple of battery charges also) to get it started. Again there was heavy soot coming from the tailpipe that ceased one the motor was finally able to run on it's own.

I belive it was hannaco (spelling?) that said the cold start update injectors allowed more fuel to flow when it was cold. I think now it is getting way to much fuel, aggrivated further by thinning the mix with #1. I even tried cycling the plugs twice but that didn't help.

I have video from Saturdays fun that the dealer will get to see.

BTW - car is stored outside with no additional heating aids.

What is the coldest that people have been able to start thier TDI-PD cars without too much trouble, anything more than 3 attemps I consider having trouble (again, stored outside without additional heating aids)???

And black smoke & soot means too much fuel, right???

The thing is, before the update was done, it may have idled very rough; BUT AT LEAST IT STARTED. It was started earlier in the year with the same temperatures with no problems except the rough idle (with unblended #2 fuel also).

Added 2-19-06---

This morning temp was 2F, only got down to 0F overnight. Took four times to get it started. Again it had normal starting RPM's and the black soot and smoke that dissappeared once the car was able to run without the aid of the starter.

Something is not right here.......

[hannaco]

The black soot is "normal". The soot is just partly burned fuel. The cylander temp is just not hot enough for total combustion.

Something to check is the cam timing on the injectors. If it is not advanced enough at startup, you will have very hard starting.

Another thing to check is the glow plug control module.

Yet another item, pull the glow plug harness, and check for voltage at each plug.

If you have vag-com, monitor the temp of the motor. Is it the same as your ambient reading at time of first start? Also monitor the rpm and tps.

[Dorado]

Check timing as said above, and also look to increase the amount of cetane boost additive (PowerService), and switch diesel fuel source. The higher the cetane, the more completely the fuel burns (less smoke and soot). Where are you filling up with diesel? I would email other TDI'ers in your area for recommendations.

[slpopp]

Originally Posted by hannaco

The black soot is "normal". The soot is just partly burned fuel. The cylander temp is just not hot enough for total combustion.

I NEVER had the black soot happening before the update was done. Is the fuel map something the dealer can adjust, or is it hard written in the ECU software.

Originally Posted by dorado

Check timing as said above, and also look to increase the amount of cetane boost additive (PowerService), and switch diesel fuel source. The higher the cetane, the more completely the fuel burns (less smoke and soot). Where are you filling up with diesel?

This tank has fuel from 2 different suppliers (Conoco-#2 & Amacco-#1). Never had a problem with them before. The actuall ratio of Power Service in this tank is 6 Gallons #2 with 2oz, and 8 gallons #1 with 6oz. This is stronger than the recomended 32oz per 100 gallons.

This is the first real cold snap after the update was done. If something got screwed up from the update I wouldn't have noticed it untill know. Even when temps are at 20F there has been a few times when the exhaust was sooty and black up to a minute after the car started.

Before the update = No problem starting - normal bluish gray exhaust, just rough idle for ~1/2 minute.

After update = Problems starting at temperatures 0F and below, and black - sooty exhaust.

Shouldn't have let dealer talk me into doing the update.

[The Cheat]

I don't have the update done, but I've never had problems with cold start (maybe a 5sec crank below freezing max).

try running a higher blend of biodiesel (b2 is required in minnesota...try a b20 blend...it's on average 50cetane) and see if that helps. bio produces less soot, and in b20 form, is excellent for our pump injectors. i run it all the time with no issues. i still soot a bit, but that's because i have uprated injectors (so if they did the tsb...they'd be taking my allards...bad bad bad!)

[Dorado]

Good advise on the biodiesel! A little (B5-20) goes a long way to improve ignition of the fuel (bio has high cetane and oxygen content) and reduce smoke.

If fuel is good and cetane boost adequate, then it's an injection and timing issue. I would suggest describing the symptoms at the forum at www.tdiclub.com and going back to the dealer with some idea of what needs to be done, other TDI PD's experiences, etc.

It would also help if you could hook up with somebody with VagCom in order to read injection timing, injection quantity at idle, etc.

[slpopp]

Stopped by dealer today with video and ziploc bag that had the soot from when I was trying to start it on Saturday. The service manager looked at the ziploc bag of soot, and he could smell the odd oder from the bag (smells like burning insulation on wires), he was supprised at how bad the soot smelled and said there was defininatley something wrong. He said that based on the amount of soot that came out, the smell of it, and the fact that the car is otherwise performing well, the engine could be getting over-fueld when cold starting.

I don't know what normal soot from a deisel should look like but the stuff that was comming out of my tailpipe was small bead-shaped fragments that rolled around on the ground with the wind, too heavy to become airborn. A relative that has a Powerstroke says that he has snake-shaped soot particles that come out of is truck all the time when it gets cold out, maybe this is just what the Ford soot looks like.

On Wednesday it goes in to have the instrument cluster replaced (scrambled characters every once in a while when ignition is off). It did this once about 5 months ago, and last Friday it did it twice. Luckily I had a digital camera and got some pictures of it before it returned to normal. They are going the check the engine issues out on that same day.

Can the fuel map be altered with vag-com or is it hard written in the ECU software? Is it just one setting that moves the entire fuel map richer or leaner, or can just the cold start or cold idle be changed? I want to have some information on Wednesday incase they tell me they altered the fuel map to correct the problem (if it turnes out not to be a timing issue).

BTW - Is there a way to keep from being logged out while typing replys???

[Dorado]

Can the fuel map be altered with vag-com or is it hard written in the ECU software? Is it just one setting that moves the entire fuel map richer or leaner, or can just the cold start or cold idle be changed? I want to have some information on Wednesday incase they tell me they altered the fuel map to correct the problem (if it turnes out not to be a timing issue).

Yes, you can adjust many settings, including injection quantity at idle and others. I still think that your problem may be a combination of injection issue and diesel fuel that is not good enough for your TDI PD. Any others with TDI PD's using the same fuel source?

It's definitely not normal to have soot pellets come out the back!

At the same time, be patient while you resolve the various issues that come up: in the end you will be glad you're driving a NB TDI!

[slpopp]

Originally Posted by Dorado

Yes, you can adjust many settings, including injection quantity at idle and others. I still think that your problem may be a combination of injection issue and diesel fuel that is not good enough for your TDI PD. Any others with TDI PD's using the same fuel source?

I have been using this source (Ammaco) as my primary source of diesel since I bought the car new. I never had an issue with this source until it got real cold, less than 0F, after having the cold start update done.

When the update was done they also were having problems getting thier computer to talk to the ECU in the car, tech was probably feeling rushed because car was already 3 days late and they were paying for a rental car. Dealer called 45 minutes before closing time saying car was done. There was maybe some settings that were missed or didn't take.

Originally Posted by Dorado

It's definitely not normal to have soot pellets come out the back!

The soot isn't large pellets (don't know if that's what you meant by ), but more like very small balls (or very large dust particles)

Originally Posted by Dorado

At the same time, be patient while you resolve the various issues that come up: in the end you will be glad you're driving a NB TDI!

I've got a motorcycle as my primary transportation in the summer (when weather permits), so I've got 7 years or 70,000 miles for them to make things right. I think I'll run out of time before miles

New Beetle TDI-PD with the DSG transmision - VERY FUN TO DRIVE!!!

[Beaumont]

I just have one question on your statement 7 years or 70000 miles - is this an extended warranty or the factory warranty?

Thanks

Barry

[slpopp]

Originally Posted by Beaumont

I just have one question on your statement 7 years or 70000 miles - is this an extended warranty or the factory warranty?

Thanks

Barry

Extended warranty purchased at same time I bought the car new.

[CoriBug]

Just last week I had to leave my car outside in very cold weather, about -15 at night. I didn't start her for 2 days straight and when I did, she started right away, with a sort of 'waaaaaaaaarrrrrrrr' sound.

Cori

[aovdberg]

Last year it was at night -20 celcius and the car started without problem it's a nb tdi 1999.

[bluenb1]

I would not reccomend running any BIO in it during the winter. Especially in that cold of temps unless you want solid gel in the lines? Make sure the fuel filter is changed every 20K miles or even a little earlier. Water will get trapped in there and freeze up. Also, have timing advancement checked by someone with VagCom. PM me if you want anything specifically answered. Cheers, J

[slpopp]

On Thursday (2-23-06) the dealer attempted to start the car to check the hard starting issue. They had the same thing happen to them (lots & lots of cranking with lots of black smoke, but no start). They checked a few things including injector flow rate (don't know if they checked timing though). What they found was a defective/restricted fuel filter. They said it looked like the filter media had been crushed, it wasn't sitting up near the top of the filter (what you can see where the "T" fitting goes. They said they replaced the fuel filter (which they did do, I can tell it's not the original filter) and it started right up. They kept the car overnight on Thursday to verify it was the filter causing the problem and cold started it on Friday with no problems. This morning I had a very easy time starting it at 0F. It started right up with mimimal cranking, maybe two seconds worth, it took 3 or 4 attemps before they replaced the filter.

They replaced the filter (with almost 13,000 miles on it) under warranty, even though they did a fuel check and they could tell I was using the Powerservice additive. They think the additive MAY have contributed to the collapsed filter element but they couldn't tell for sure, or couldn't think of what may have been in the additive to cause that. They recomended I stop using the Powerservice additive and use the Stanadyne One Shot additive they sell. They said I shouldn't need any anti gelling additives with a 50/50 mix of #1 & #2 anyway. I am wondering if I brought this on myself by running straight #2 fuel (which the truckstop here sells) with the Powerservice additive the entire winter. Maybe the #2 was like pumping syrup through the filter. Oh Well......

It seems like the car has gotten it's low-end grunt and upper rmp zip back also, but that may be because I have been driving a mini-van the last three days (mini my @ss!!!).

Hoooorrrraaaayyyyy .

I can't figure out why the filter would cause this, but I don't care right now. It's good to have the car that I originally bought back.