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Old 03-08-2011, 12:45 AM
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Default Need help with 2002 NB...engine stalling, etc.

2002 New Beetle 2.0 engine, 166,925 miles

The check engine codes come up in this order. The engine will start and idle. The lady reported that it would actually stall and she had to leave it beside the road a couple of times.

The info on the codes is directly from the Bentley manual. However, VCDS did give a little more info. I should have saved it or at least wrote it all down. Seems there was reference to some sensors by number.


1. 17978 - P1570, Control Module Locked (immobilizer)
2. 17704 - P1296, Cooling system malfunction
3. 16804 - P0420, Catalyst system, Bank 1 Efficiency below threshold
4. 16684 - P0300, Random/Multiple Cylinder misfires detected
5. 16686 - P0302, Cylinder #2 Misfire detected
6. 16706 - P0322, Ignition/Distributor engine speed Inp circ no signal
7. 17579 - P1171, Throttle Actuation Pontentiometer Signal 2 Range/Performance
8. 16687 - P0303, Cylinder #3 Misfire detected
9. 16688 - P0304, Cylinder #4 Misfire detected
10. 16705 - P0321, Ignition/Distributor engine speed Inp circ range/performance
11. 16514 - P0130, 02 Sensor circ., Bank1-Sensor1 Malfunction
12. 16685 - P0301, Cylinder #1 Misfire detected

So, I am not very well experienced with the NB. My experience is with the TDI engine, primarily the ALH. I have VCDS, the Bentley manuals, tools and a place to work.

If anyone has been down this road before and has some suggestions, please let me know.

I'm thinking if some sensors (Temp, engine speed, etc.) are replaced that most of these codes can be cleared and will not come back.........fingers crossed!
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Old 03-08-2011, 01:04 AM
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Looks like you might have a dead O2 sensor. Also, your misfires could be from plugs, wires, or coil. Replaced any of those lately?
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Old 03-08-2011, 01:41 AM
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Default NB issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smileybug View Post
Looks like you might have a dead O2 sensor. Also, your misfires could be from plugs, wires, or coil. Replaced any of those lately?
I don't think any of those items have been replaced....they all looked rather dusty this afternoon when I popped the hood on this car (it is not mine)...........just talked to the lady on the phone! No new plugs! She did say that the fuel pump was replaced recently, which did not help with the issues!
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Old 03-08-2011, 05:25 AM
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Clear all the codes, drive until you get a CEL or a symptom, then rescan and post the code(s) and troubleshoot what occurs. You may well have someold codes from previous problems in there now....
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Old 03-08-2011, 11:23 PM
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Default Update

Okay, here is some additional information.

Yesterday morning (Monday morning), my uncle (at his garage) said he tried to start the car to move it inside. He said it would do nothing....like a dead battery. However, when I went by yesterday afternoon, it started right up for me...of course there was some misfiring, etc., and MIL was on, etc. I drove it into the garage and connected my Ross-Tech VAG COM and LapTop to the OBD. That's when I did the scan and got the codes listed in the initial post to this Thread.

So, today, I connected the VAG COM to scan again with only the key on. I got the scan completed and all of a sudden the controller quit....lights in the cluster all went out.

The bummer is, it will not start! All those lights around the outside edge of the cluster will flash off and on like crazy. Then, any attempt to start they go out, even the odometer reading goes dim and then finally out.

I checked the battery cables...clean and tight. The battery was installed in October '10.

So, I'm concerned that part of these issues are with the immobilizer. That is the first code listed.

Could some of these problems be ignition switch?
Is there an equilivant relay to the 109 Relay in the diesel?

Strangely, after letting it sit for about half hour, when the key is turned on those lights all come back on flashing like crazy. Then, if I attempt to start the engine, the lights all go off and sounds if there is a relay under the dash making a noise.....muffled clicking I guess best describes the sound!

Another thing I noticed, the key will not unlock or lock the doors remotely. They will lock/unlock with the buttons on the inside of the door.......... are some of the issues key related?

Not sure what to do at this point!
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:06 AM
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Check the car ends of the battery cables for good connections.

Check both ends of the main engine block and battery ground cables.

Check/charge/replace the battery as required, it should sit at 12.5V or more fully charged and pass a load test, swap out with a known good one to prove it good or bad if you don´t have access to a tester.

The immobilizer does not cause a loss of main power as you describe, that sounds like insufficient battery power of poor connections somewhere in the battery circuit.

Yes it might be ignition switch related BUT the permanent live circuits would be stable so check one of those while the power is messing around, if the problem is ignition circuit supply only them the ign switch is a good bet.

Clear codes and retest as before once you have stable power.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonsi View Post
Check the car ends of the battery cables for good connections.

Check both ends of the main engine block and battery ground cables.

Check/charge/replace the battery as required, it should sit at 12.5V or more fully charged and pass a load test, swap out with a known good one to prove it good or bad if you don´t have access to a tester.

The immobilizer does not cause a loss of main power as you describe, that sounds like insufficient battery power of poor connections somewhere in the battery circuit.

Yes it might be ignition switch related BUT the permanent live circuits would be stable so check one of those while the power is messing around, if the problem is ignition circuit supply only them the ign switch is a good bet.

Clear codes and retest as before once you have stable power.
I was pressed for time today. So, tomorrow morning I will take a "red hot" battery and install it and go from there!

After I made this last post, I finally got the owner on the phone. She said that the battery light had been flashing. Not being familiar with the NB cluster, I really never noticed anything like that yesterday when I had it running. She did say the battery was replaced this past October from Advance!

I'll report back tomorrow sometime.

Thanks!
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:20 AM
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I say o2 sensor, battery or alternator. I would start with the battery.
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Old 03-11-2011, 04:11 AM
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This is a very "summary" update (with a believe it or not).

As you may recall, even though Monday evening I did get the NB to start and then it wouldn't do anything on Tuesday, as in no crank at all...just flashing dash lights

As it turned out....the battery was weak (11.55 volts). Something may be drawing current above and beyond the normal when the Key is off and out of the ignition (will check that later).

So, anyway, I put a red-not battery in ........ it would crank the *ell out of it, but no start. I pulled a plug wire and attached a "brand new" spark plug.....very blue fire. I followed the Bentley procedures to determine ignition condition. Blue fire means healthy system (Bentley's words)

Out of courteousity, I removed the spark plugs (NKG). They were heavily coated with carbon (brownish/blackish). I installed a set of plugs that come out of the re-cycle bin....really. So, I cranked more and more!

Then I cleared all the codes. Then cranked more! Then a single code relating to the O2 sensor was all that would come up.

Then, I tried something a dude at AutoZone told me. (This may be BS). He said to remove battery cables and connect them together for at least two minutes .......something about the car did not recognize me and that's why the immobilizer locked out starting of engine. This procedure was suppose to set the ECU back to the default as when new off the assembly line (ever heard such crap?). I tried that....no difference. But, then the O2 code came back as well as the immobilizer.

So, I let the thing sit for a while and helped my uncle with a Toyota pickup that had a broken Cam bolt and stripped keyway.

About a half hour later, I did the battery re-set thing again as descibed above and then tried to start the NB again.....it did begin to back-fire a few times after a lot of cranking!

So, I continued cranking.....began to get a hit or two! Finally the damn thing started....after lots of bucking, etc., I got the RPM up to about 3500 and it began to sooth out! I took the RPM up to 4500 off and on for 3 or 4 minutes...........let it idle back down and then it died....got it started again and repeated the above.

Finally, it smoothed out and quit coughing, bucking, etc. I had VAG COM connected the whole time. So, I got it really warmed up and the fans out front cycled a few times. I cleared the codes and cut the engine off! Re-started, NO CEL......yes!

I took it for a drive (12 miles) and it ran great....damn, those 2.0s will haul a$$!

So, tell me! Is it going to be okay tomorrow? I have a new set of NKGs on the way.

The lady said it had acted up off and on for months.....were those plugs going bad and sending codes causing the "systems" to basically throw more codes and begin a shut down? I mean, it is amazing how well the car was running this evening when I parked it.

Oh, and she has had it to several different "mechanics" in the past month.

Believe it or not! ......is this going to be as simple as Spark Plugs?

Andy

Last edited by AndyBees; 03-12-2011 at 12:20 AM.. Reason: Add info
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Old 03-12-2011, 12:38 AM
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Default Update............last one!

Okay, as I suspected, the engine did not fire up today without excessive cranking....even with the new NKG spark plugs.

However, I did get it going! Besides codes thrown due to intermitten misfires, I got one other code: Engine RPM sensor.....implauseable signal. While letting the engine idle for warm up purposes it stalled. When I fired it up again, it had thrown another code relating to the Engine RPM....no signal.

So, I removed the Engine RPM sensor and cleaned off a lot of debris....mostly ferrous stuff like a magnetic oil drain plug gets on it. Although the engine was warm, it did fire right up after re-installing the Engine RPM sensor.

Tomorrow morning will be the tell-a-tale time!

If it doesn't start with ease, I plan to replace that sensor.

Last edited by AndyBees; 05-07-2011 at 02:46 AM.. Reason: Clarification
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Old 03-12-2011, 03:44 AM
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You have some other problem if the site is that slow for you. No issues for me.

It would be very beneficial to others in the future if you post your final resolution. There have been posts offering help. No reason to not post it. Please do. We'd all appreciate it.

Also, if you are getting technical help elsewhere, that might be beneficial to list as well. This site does have decent traffic but sometimes topics aren't responded to very fast. Having another resource would be great.

Good luck!
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Old 03-13-2011, 06:03 AM
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Breaking my promise!

I did go by my uncle's garage today and see if the 2002 2.0 NB would start. It fired right up and seemed to idle and rev up without hiccups, bucks, etc. (If you don't understand what I am talking about, read all the previous posts I have made in this Thread.)

So, did the Engine RPM sensor removal and cleaning help? I think so, but I will try it one more time. Tomorrow I will do a second test at cold temps! If it starts.......that's far better than it was a week ago and I will consider the issues solved!

As requested: My other sources of info come from TDI Gurus at the TDIclub. I know a few that also have knowledge and experience with gassers! Also, inspite of the short-comings of the Bentley Manual, I was able to make my own assumptions and analysis to reach diagnostics that made sense! Example: In the Bentley Manual, based on the systems, the Engine Speed Sensor (G28) should have been listed in the schematics of the ignition components rather than in the fuel injection system. That fact is made rather clear in the introduction section (General 2, located between 19 and 20 as I recall) In General 2 there is a rather detailed explanation of how the coil gets it's input data which includes G28 data. Just confusing and made it very difficult to find detailed reference to G28 and it's location..oh, well!

Sadly, these folks have spent hundreds of dollars on this car and it was in a mess when it was brought to me. Although my expertise is with TDIs, I agreed to give it a shot to solve the issues of this vehicle!

End of story! No more posts from me!

Hope this helps someone with 2.0 starting and running issues!
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Old 03-13-2011, 03:33 PM
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I think you still have a problem and don't know it. I suspect you have an intermittent coil issue. If the crank sensor dies then the computer has no reference and it won't fire the coil or the injectors. The fact you are showing misfire codes is more indicitve of a coil. Since you've decided to not come here anymore I'm not sure why I am even posting to this.
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Old 03-15-2011, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil C55 View Post
I think you still have a problem and don't know it. I suspect you have an intermittent coil issue. If the crank sensor dies then the computer has no reference and it won't fire the coil or the injectors. The fact you are showing misfire codes is more indicitve of a coil. Since you've decided to not come here anymore I'm not sure why I am even posting to this.
Phil, after I left that last post, I did not sign-out, just clicked off the web site. So, last evening I come back to sign-out and saw your response. I feel that I must respond for the benefit of anyone that may read this Thread.

Without all the details again (read the first posts).....

Okay, using my VCDS (VAG COM), the Bentley manual for the NB, and the info I could glean from convesations with the owner, I deligently worked thru the issues as best I knew how.

As she told me, it began to be a hard starter last fall, die on the road, etc. So, after reading in the Bentley, studying the various systems (ignition, fueling, etc.), I come to understand how they worked together...pretty basic.

So, one of the tests was to determine if the coil bank/pack was bad/good. As per the Bentley, using a BRAND NEW spark plug, I check one wire ........SPARK was very blue! According to the Bentley, that indicates a "healthy" ignition system.

So, I moved on to other things. Mainly, I kept cranking it over until it would finally start. I did VCDS scans several times, cleared them, restarted, repeated, etc., observed engine functions, etc. One thing I noticed was after the engine began to warm up, the misfiring would go away.

Further, out of curiousity, I removed one of the spark plugs (owner said they had been replaced by a garage as part of the attempts to repair). Well, the plugs were the worse I had ever seen for deposits, NKG originals I believe. Remember, with that old junk pile set of used spark plugs I drove the car 10 or 12 miles and it did fine! Just would not start the next day with a cold engine.

So, before installing the new plugs, I connected all four of them to their respective plug wire...grounded them well (disabled the fuel injection, pulled fuse 32) and then cranked the engine.........Wild Blue sparks on all 4!

That led me to the other components in the scheme of things!

As stated, I removed the Crankshaft Sensor and it was loaded with what appeared to be ferrous debris (powdered iron) as not unlike a magnet oil drain plug!

I cleaned the Crankshaft Sensor and re-installed it. For the last three days, on cool/cold mornings, the engine has started just fine with no misfires.......NO CHECK ENGINE LIGHT either!

So, the owner will pick it up tomorrow. We will see!

I will do one more follow-up if the car does not perform as I expect it will!
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Old 03-18-2011, 05:13 AM
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Default 2.0 with starting/running issues

Well, the lady has been driving the NB daily this week and apparently it is doing okay!
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Old 03-20-2011, 02:47 AM
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Via FaceBook tonight I received an update from the lady about the car............in her words, "running like a top."
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Old 03-25-2011, 04:49 AM
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Well, almost another week has gone by......... apparently changing out the fouled plugs (loaded with deposits) and cleaning the Crankshaft Sensor was all it needed!

The lady says it starts and runs great!
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Old 05-08-2011, 02:56 AM
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Okay, if you've been following this Thread....the cleaning of the Engine Speed Sensor seemed to work for a while! Then the car began to act-up again.

So, as per several VCDS code scans, I installed a new Engine Speed Sensor. Here are the codes before installing the new sensor (they are very similar to the earlier codes I posted).

12 Faults Found:

16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16686 - Cylinder 2: Misfire Detected
P0302 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
17978 - Engine Start Blocked by Immobilizer
P1570 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16706 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28): No Signal P0322 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16804 - Catalyst System; Bank 1: Efficiency Below Threshold
P0420 - 35-00 - -
17704 - Error in Mapped Cooling System (check Temp-Sensor and Thermostat)
P1296 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
17579 - Angle Sensor 2 for Throttle Actuator (G188) Implausible Signal
P1171 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16688 - Cylinder 4: Misfire Detected
P0304 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
19481 - Angle Sensor 1 for Throttle Drive 2 (G297): Implausible Signal
P3025 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
17953 - Throttle Valve Controller: Malfunction
P1545 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16705 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Implausible Signal
P0321 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16687 - Cylinder 3: Misfire Detected
P0303 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent

Of course, the reason I'm back, is the car is doing the same thing......when fully warmed up, it may or may not run okay...misfire, no power, may stall-out and not re-start until it has set a while (probably after a cool down period).

As I gleaned the Bentley Manual, the Engine Speed Sensor is a major factor in the ignition system. Seems that no signal would indicate it was part of if not all the problem.

However, I have most recently learned the lady had a "used" fuel pump installed last fall and the mechanic said the OEM pump was dead. But, the USED one does not show fuel level which is part of the unit.......could this USED pump not be providing the proper fuel pressure! But, how would that show all those codes?

Also, the lady says that since I cleaned the OEM Engine Speed Sensor and most recently installed the new one, the car always starts good when cold. As I stated above, she says it acts up after it's been running for a while...sometimes it stalls-out altogether and will not start until it cools off ............Is that a bad Coil Pack?

Any ideas?

Last edited by AndyBees; 05-08-2011 at 03:06 AM.. Reason: Clarification
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:28 PM
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ive been working on a mystery problem also where the car shuts down randomly . some times you need to wait a little before it will restart. i posted a thread titled fuel pump doesn't run when door is opened which is a miss leading title if you read it you will learn what ive checked and to date im still trouble shooting . i recently got a rear o2 trouble code but haven't changed it yet i just cant believe a o2 sensor will cause such a problem . ive changed the fuel pump relay the cps and checked the ground under the battery tray. the car did run trouble free after putting the battery back in and grounding the pos cable for a couple minutes before reinstalling the battery. trouble free for about 90 miles i told the wife it was all set and sure enough it shutdown on her about 7-10 miles after leaving the house.its in my shop right now and every day after work ive been having some serious conversations with it. my multi meter the beetle and some four letter words usually. the beetle never really says much its to bad i would like to know how its feeling lol. i guess if i had a vagcom it could tell me everything.
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Old 05-20-2011, 06:16 AM
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Default Still doing research

Well, the lady has ordered a new fuel pump and coil pack! I'm expecting a call from her any time soon!

I'll update this Thread as soon as the parts come in and I get them installed!
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