Helping a friend - need some help/advice

[steveclv]

A friend of mine has a 2001 Beetle and I recently replaced burned out headlamp bulbs for her. The car was driven after that and parked up for a while.
The old battery was past redemption and so a new battery was installed and yesterday we tried to start the car.

There are no obvious disconnected wires, everything looks good under the hood and there are no codes in the computer (I have a reader).

The engine spins on the starter but will not fire. I squirted some ether (starting fluid) into the intake and it did fire momentarily so I'm fairly certain that it's a fuel issue.

I cannot hear a fuel pump running when I turn on the ignition and I don't have a handbook but I think I managed to check all the fuses.

Is there a relay for the fuel pump and if so where?
Where is the fuel pump located?

Any other ideas?

Any help is much appreciated as I'd like to get it running for her.

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

The fuel pump is in the tank, I'm looking up to verify a relay and get it's location.
Benley indicates a relay, but no location is given. give me about ten minutes and I'll put up the electrical diagnosis for the pump as shown in the Bentley. Bentley does indicate the relay is monitored by the OBDII system and several DTCs are associated with it
Edit: Found it, Relay 409, Position #4 on main relay panel.
Pump fuse - Fuse #28 (left side, third up from the bottom), dashboard fuse panel

MORAV

[steveclv]

Thanks for that.

A diagram and location of the relay would be a great help and I'll recheck the fuse.

I can run a 12V line to the pump to check it energizes now I know where it is

Appreciated!

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Originally Posted by steveclv

Thanks for that.

A diagram and location of the relay would be a great help and I'll recheck the fuse.

I can run a 12V line to the pump to check it energizes now I know where it is

Appreciated!

I'm scanning the diagnostics for the pump into a .pdf file now. I'll post it up in just a few minutes.

For vehicles manufactured 1998 -05/2003 - The fuel pump relay is on the main relay panel under the left side of the instrument panel; #4 (Relay id - 409), top row, fourth from the left.

I don't think you'll need a wiring diagram, but let me know if you encounter something where you do. p/m always best.


Here you go, file attached below.

More than you need probably, but I try to only upload once onto the Org and then I can link to here in future posts. Conserving my alotted storage space!

M.

[steveclv]

Fantastic!

Thanks so much - will work on it this evening

Steve

[steveclv]

Ugg, not quite as simple as I thought

First checked the fuse - 12V on both sides with the ignition on

Then pulled the relay - didn't look burned but can't really test

Pulled the cover over the fuel pump - pump wasn't running

Checked voltages on the pins - typically they were 0.5V with ignition on and went to zero with the ignition off

Ran a 12V wire to the pump and the pump kicked in and ran but when I tried to start the engine still nothing.

The fuel gauge shows 1/4 full

So I'm thinking I should replace the fuel pump relay to see if that gets the pump to run but why won't the engine start with the fuel pumping manually?

I tested it with ether and got the engine to kick but now I wonder if that was just a compression fire rather than ignition which would mean that ignition and fuel pump were non operative. That makes me wonder if a PO had some sort of immobilizer installed although when I pulled the glove box to replace it I didn't see anything obvious.

This isn't going to be as simple as I first thought

[geniushanbiao]

Originally Posted by steveclv

Ugg, not quite as simple as I thought

First checked the fuse - 12V on both sides with the ignition on

Then pulled the relay - didn't look burned but can't really test

Pulled the cover over the fuel pump - pump wasn't running

Checked voltages on the pins - typically they were 0.5V with ignition on and went to zero with the ignition off

Ran a 12V wire to the pump and the pump kicked in and ran but when I tried to start the engine still nothing.

The fuel gauge shows 1/4 full

So I'm thinking I should replace the fuel pump relay to see if that gets the pump to run but why won't the engine start with the fuel pumping manually?

I tested it with ether and got the engine to kick but now I wonder if that was just a compression fire rather than ignition which would mean that ignition and fuel pump were non operative. That makes me wonder if a PO had some sort of immobilizer installed although when I pulled the glove box to replace it I didn't see anything obvious.

This isn't going to be as simple as I first thought

Yes German cars are not easy to fix. Replace the relay first then see what's going on. Did you do a throttle-body-alignment after you replace the battery?

[steveclv]

No, didn't do a realignment but that shouldn't stop the fuel pump from running or the car from starting (should it??)

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Basic checks for fuel and ignition at the plugs, have you done these?
Here are the Bentley ignition diagnostics -
Bentley Ignition System Diagnosis
Error Code P0171 - System Too Lean (Bank1)

The immobilizer is a screwy thing that I haven't researched and hence don't understand, but I know others have had similar issues where this was the culprit.
Car starts but dies 2 seconds after.
Would have to look and see if the '01 came with it.

M.

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Still researching immobilizer, but found this re. interruption of voltage supply -

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

And this thread is currently running -
98 Bug will not start after disconnecting the battery

[steveclv]

Cheers

If the ECM loses programming then it usually results in poor running for 10 miles or so until the car completes the drive cycle to relearn - it still allows it to start.

Seems like the other thread is a 'car won't turn over' thread whereas mine turns over just doesn't start.

Will be checking ignition this evening - too hot at the moment 113F

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Yeah, I figured that out after going back and re-reading the whole post. Another poster was leading me to not starting, not not cranking. Sorry.

I can now get the wiring diagrams up on my Bentley DVD-ROM (issue finally rsolved) capture, and post or email, so let me know if you need something.

M.

[steveclv]

Hi all - I'm back and still not starting.

I finally tracked down the problem with the fuel pump - I pulled the relay and reseated it - with the ignition on, as I push the relay home I can hear it click and the fuel pump runs for a few seconds and stops.
When I turn the ignition on and off I don't hear it which is very weird.

I then checked for a spark and woooaaahhh - no spark at all.

I checked the fuses and they are all just fine however, with the ignition on I checked the fuse 2 up on the left hand side (sorry can't remember the number but it has a picture of an engine with a lightning bolt) and there was no 12V on either side.

Really need some guidance as to what to check. Battery is fully charged, engine spins fine on the starter - just no spark now

I did replace the glovebox but the car ran after I did it. The battery was dead after sitting so we replaced the battery and it has never started since. All the fuses on the top of the battery are fine and the cables tight.

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

I am working with someone on a similar (but slightly different) situation here, but the Motronic wiring schematic for your vehicle and engine are the same as in this post -
P1128 Error Code and Location of MAF Fuse
in the .pdf titled Fuses 28, 32, 34, 43 Wiring, you will need to print this file and the .pdf file above it, Understanding Bentley Wiring Diagrams. You specifically want to look at Wiring Diagram 30/3 (numbered in upper right corner)


Let's look at where you are:

Originally Posted by steveclv

I finally tracked down the problem with the fuel pump - I pulled the relay and reseated it - with the ignition on, as I push the relay home I can hear it click and the fuel pump runs for a few seconds and stops. That is what should happen, initially. This is the pre-prime function that would normally happen when you open the door, and is controlled, through the relay, by a switch in the drivers door, OR when you turn on the key (either ativates the power to the relay to, in turn, power up the fuel pump.

When I turn the ignition on and off I don't hear it which is very weird. What are you not hearing, the fuel pump relay or the fuel pump. If it's the fuel pump your not hearing run, it is because it is already primed, if it is the relay then your following problem stands to reason.

I then checked for a spark and woooaaahhh The coil is powered by the ignition/starter switch. If the fuel pump relay is not getting power (I believe it is because of the driver's door being open), and the coil is not getting power (see reply to your next statement), there is either a wiring problem, loose plug (#15) in the instrument panel wiring harness (not likely), bad connection at the ignition/starter switch, or you have a bad ignition/starter switch. I would opt for one of the last two and go there and have a look see. From my readings on the Org, these switches/connections have been somewhat problematic. You can verify this problem by checking fuses 28, 32, 34, 43 (WITH THE DRIVERS DOOR CLOSED) and the ignition switch ON - if the there is an issue such as I described, these fuses will all be dead too.

I checked the fuses and they are all just fine however, with the ignition on I checked the fuse 2 up on the left hand side (sorry can't remember the number but it has a picture of an engine with a lightning bolt) and there was no 12V on either side. Fuse Position #29 [S229] (15A) draws it's power from the Stater/Ignition Switch [D] (and it will be dead unless the ignition is switched on). [S229] powers ECM [J220], and the Ignition Coil (both downstream).

Really need some guidance as to what to check. Battery is fully charged, engine spins fine on the starter - just no spark now I suspect, while you were able to get the fuel pump relay to pre-prime the fuel pump once, I doubt that you have a full pump that will run in the present state. See comments above.

Run the checks I suggest and post up what you find.

To help you locate and better identify the fuses and relays I am posting .pdf files for the Fuses & Panels, Relays & Panels Locations from both the Bentley Repair Manual (Tech Oriented) and the Bentley Service Manual (Consumer Oriented) below. Both contain different information, thus the post of both.

MORAV