Help with rear brake pad replacement

[nitroman]

Hi all, I need to replace my rear brake pads and I want to do it myself this time. I've been reading the DIY guides on this forum and the Haynes manual (I'll probably get a Bentley soon). But since this is my first time doing brakes I want to make sure I understand all details - thus sorry for the long post and noob questions. But first a couple of notes for some context:

- I'm only doing the rears at this time
- I am not an agressive driver, I never slam on the brakes (except emergency). Smooth acceleration and deceleration always.
- I am willing to spend money on some decently good parts, but I don't want to waste money, so I don't feel I need to get the best or the high end stuff due to my driving habits. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
- I live in Canada and currently for me it's not as easy to find that many auto parts stores (both online and B&M). Please recommend some if you know of any.

So my questions:
1) For pads, do I need to purchase ones with shims?

2) Can I use ceramic ones, since I'm not changing the fronts yet and I don't know what's in them, but probably semi-metallic. I like that there's little brake dust with ceramics, as the rims collect them so easily.

3) I'm looking at either the TRW pads:
1999 Volkswagen Beetle TRW Disc Brake Pad in Canada - Canada W0133-1821052 Disc Brake Pad Canada

Or PBR ceramics:
1999 Volkswagen Beetle PBR Disc Brake Pad in Canada - Canada W0133-1622679 Disc Brake Pad Canada

Someone please yell at me if I'm choosing the wrong ones.

4) I read that I should change the rotors as well, it's always good to have new rotors with pads. Is that true?

5) Since I don't think I need sport rotors or drilled rotors, will a basic EBC one be just fine? There's also a Zimmerman and a Balo rotor for around the same price. I don't know which brand is better.
1999 Volkswagen Beetle EBC Brakes Disc Brake Rotor in Canada - Canada UPR816 Disc Brake Rotor Canada

6) Other parts - the self locking caliper bolts and the pad retaining springs. I read I should replace them with new ones. Anyone know of a good place to buy these?

Thanks in advance.

[geniushanbiao]

Let me answer.
1. The shims are actually used to reduce noise and vibration during brake. So it's good to have shims but not necessary. Actually most times semi-metallic and ceramic pads come with shims.
2. ceramic ones have better brake performance when hot but poor when cold while semi-metallic are quite stable. Some people find that ceramic pads eat rotors faster than semi-metallic ones especially on cheap rotors. However ceramic ones produce gray-white brake dust which doesn't make your rim too dirty. For myself I like semi-metallic on rear and ceramic on front.
3. Actually I don't think the brand of pads make too much difference with same material so I always buy them from like autozone or advanceautoparts. They save me a lot of money.
4. No you don't have to replace rotors every time. This is not a BMW. However you have to inspect the rotors every time you replace pads for thickness, score, mark, and the condition of the surface. Any imperfection found, replace both rotors. Typically if you replace pads normally with good cleaning and sand-resurfacing the rotors should last for 3-5 sets of pads.
5. Again if you use semi-metallic then any rotor is good I think but if you use ceramic then you have to buy a good rotor.
6. They don't need replacement every time but you have to inspect. You can buy them from dealer and they are not that expensive.

BTW, don't forget to sand resurface the rotor, clean the pad retainers thoroughly with brake cleaner and scraper, apply brake grease, and lubricate the parking brake lever!! They are the most important part and most repair shops don't do it!!

Originally Posted by nitroman

Hi all, I need to replace my rear brake pads and I want to do it myself this time. I've been reading the DIY guides on this forum and the Haynes manual (I'll probably get a Bentley soon). But since this is my first time doing brakes I want to make sure I understand all details - thus sorry for the long post and noob questions. But first a couple of notes for some context:

- I'm only doing the rears at this time
- I am not an agressive driver, I never slam on the brakes (except emergency). Smooth acceleration and deceleration always.
- I am willing to spend money on some decently good parts, but I don't want to waste money, so I don't feel I need to get the best or the high end stuff due to my driving habits. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
- I live in Canada and currently for me it's not as easy to find that many auto parts stores (both online and B&M). Please recommend some if you know of any.

So my questions:
1) For pads, do I need to purchase ones with shims?

2) Can I use ceramic ones, since I'm not changing the fronts yet and I don't know what's in them, but probably semi-metallic. I like that there's little brake dust with ceramics, as the rims collect them so easily.

3) I'm looking at either the TRW pads:
1999 Volkswagen Beetle TRW Disc Brake Pad in Canada - Canada W0133-1821052 Disc Brake Pad Canada

Or PBR ceramics:
1999 Volkswagen Beetle PBR Disc Brake Pad in Canada - Canada W0133-1622679 Disc Brake Pad Canada

Someone please yell at me if I'm choosing the wrong ones.

4) I read that I should change the rotors as well, it's always good to have new rotors with pads. Is that true?

5) Since I don't think I need sport rotors or drilled rotors, will a basic EBC one be just fine? There's also a Zimmerman and a Balo rotor for around the same price. I don't know which brand is better.
1999 Volkswagen Beetle EBC Brakes Disc Brake Rotor in Canada - Canada UPR816 Disc Brake Rotor Canada

6) Other parts - the self locking caliper bolts and the pad retaining springs. I read I should replace them with new ones. Anyone know of a good place to buy these?

Thanks in advance.

[nitroman]

Thanks so much for that detailed response. That clarifies a lot of things for me. Now I guess I just have to read more carefully the section in the repair manual that explains how to inspect and sand the rotors. Thanks again.

[IndyTom]

I have put EBC solid rotors and EBC Ultimax pads all around.
They are excellent Rotors and Pads. Ceramic pads last longer but they do have the tendency to squeak more than other pads do. The Ultimax Pads are not Ceramic and they work great together with the EBC Rotors. There is very little Brake Dust and they wear in very nicely. On Volkswagens in general the rear brakes are a lot harder to replace than the front ones. The front brakes took me about an hour to do. The rear took me over 3 hours. You also need a special tool which turns the caliper piston while pushing it back in. This is only needed for the rear. The Fronts are much easier. Also there are rear bolts that should be replaced when changing pads. The EBC pads did not come with them so I just used some blue loctite when I put them back in. The VW OEM pads do come with new bolts. Not sure if any of the other pads do.
I would recommend you change Rotors along with the pads. Especially if the old Rotors have been on there a while. Otherwise those pad regardless if they are ceramic or not will wear a lot quicker. The entire brake job for 4 Rotors and 2 sets of Ulitmax EBC pads cost me less than 200 bucks. That isn't too bad and I do like the brakes. One other thing you might want to do is change the brake fluid. If it has been in there a while it is a good idea to do that after swapping your brakes.

If I were you I would start with the Front brakes since they are a lot easier. Then do the rear brakes.

Good Luck!

[nitroman]

Thanks IndyTom for your response and your opinion. I guess I'll take off the tires this weekend and try to do some inspection. I didn't look myself yet, I was just told by the tire shop that my rear brakes are low but the fronts are still OK. Unfortunately I didn't go in and look at them myself as they were already done by the time they told me.

I'll think about the rotors, I don't mind buying new ones as they're pretty cheap and if it makes everything work better together then all the better. But they are fairly new rotors so I guess I'll try to inspect them first. But from the Haynes manual, there's like this tool needed to measure the wear where you put it on and spin the rotor and stuff. I don't have that so, I dunno...,

And yes that special caliper tool, I already checked and my local CandianTire can lend out the tool for free. I hope this is the right one, if not please let me know:
Disc Brake Caliper Piston Tool | Canadian Tire

And lastly, brake fluid, yes I plan to do that too as I'm overdue. Thanks a lot for all the suggestions, I feel a bit more confident now as I want to make sure I know all details first before tackling this job.

Just curious, why would the rears take 3x more time to do? Which part actually takes the most time compared to the fronts?

[IndyTom]

Originally Posted by nitroman

Thanks IndyTom for your response and your opinion. I guess I'll take off the tires this weekend and try to do some inspection. I didn't look myself yet, I was just told by the tire shop that my rear brakes are low but the fronts are still OK. Unfortunately I didn't go in and look at them myself as they were already done by the time they told me.

I'll think about the rotors, I don't mind buying new ones as they're pretty cheap and if it makes everything work better together then all the better. But they are fairly new rotors so I guess I'll try to inspect them first. But from the Haynes manual, there's like this tool needed to measure the wear where you put it on and spin the rotor and stuff. I don't have that so, I dunno...,

And yes that special caliper tool, I already checked and my local CandianTire can lend out the tool for free. I hope this is the right one, if not please let me know:
Disc Brake Caliper Piston Tool | Canadian Tire

And lastly, brake fluid, yes I plan to do that too as I'm overdue. Thanks a lot for all the suggestions, I feel a bit more confident now as I want to make sure I know all details first before tackling this job.

Just curious, why would the rears take 3x more time to do? Which part actually takes the most time compared to the fronts?

If the Rotors are pretty new you may be okay just swapping in new pads. I would still take them off and have them checked or turned by an Autoparts store. O'Riley's here in the states will turn/resurface a rotor for 9 bucks. I am sure some Autoparts place in Canada would do the same. For some reason the rear pads on VW's always wear a lot faster than the front pads. My brother has a 2008 Passat and I just did his brakes and the rear pads were down the the metal and already were cutting grooves into his rotors while the front still had about half a pad left. Needless to say his rotors in the rear needed to be replaced.
Yes, that is the correct tool(s) you need to turn the caliper piston. It's a multitool with adapters to fit most cars.

I may have exaggereted a bit when I said 3 hours for the rear. It did take me longer because there is more work to be done with unhooking the parking brake and the bolts for the pads plus I did do the Rotors and I stripped the screw that held in the rotor so it took me a while to take that off. Plus I did paint the calipers so there was just a bit more work involved than the front brakes which seemed a lot quicker and easier overall.

Looks like you have everything in hand and are eager to get this done. Good luck to you and let us know if you have any issues.

Oh, don't forget to take off the Brake fluid reservoir cap when you push the caliper pistons back in.

[nitroman]

Ahhh, good point, I never thought of bringing the actual rotor into a shop for inspection and turning. I think I'll try to do that. The rotors were replaced last time I got new brakes so it's only a couple of years old. Not that I'm cheap and want to save money, I just don't like the idea of throwing something away that's still good. Thanks for the tips.

[geniushanbiao]

That's right that replacing the rotors with pads is good. However for me the pads bought from autozone or advanceautoparts have lifetime warranty so I don't care how fast they wear just replace them for free after they wear down.

I think you probably have a hard time turning the piston and getting the rotor screw off since it only cost me 2 hours changing the rear pads and rotors. And the brake fluid point is great that we should replace the brake fluid every 2 years for maximum brake performance.

Originally Posted by IndyTom

I have put EBC solid rotors and EBC Ultimax pads all around.
They are excellent Rotors and Pads. Ceramic pads last longer but they do have the tendency to squeak more than other pads do. The Ultimax Pads are not Ceramic and they work great together with the EBC Rotors. There is very little Brake Dust and they wear in very nicely. On Volkswagens in general the rear brakes are a lot harder to replace than the front ones. The front brakes took me about an hour to do. The rear took me over 3 hours. You also need a special tool which turns the caliper piston while pushing it back in. This is only needed for the rear. The Fronts are much easier. Also there are rear bolts that should be replaced when changing pads. The EBC pads did not come with them so I just used some blue loctite when I put them back in. The VW OEM pads do come with new bolts. Not sure if any of the other pads do.
I would recommend you change Rotors along with the pads. Especially if the old Rotors have been on there a while. Otherwise those pad regardless if they are ceramic or not will wear a lot quicker. The entire brake job for 4 Rotors and 2 sets of Ulitmax EBC pads cost me less than 200 bucks. That isn't too bad and I do like the brakes. One other thing you might want to do is change the brake fluid. If it has been in there a while it is a good idea to do that after swapping your brakes.

If I were you I would start with the Front brakes since they are a lot easier. Then do the rear brakes.

Good Luck!

[IndyTom]

Originally Posted by nitroman

Ahhh, good point, I never thought of bringing the actual rotor into a shop for inspection and turning. I think I'll try to do that. The rotors were replaced last time I got new brakes so it's only a couple of years old. Not that I'm cheap and want to save money, I just don't like the idea of throwing something away that's still good. Thanks for the tips.

WOW, only 2 years old and the pads are already worn down? What brand pads did they use?

[nitroman]

Sorry my mistake. I checked my records and it was actually 4 years ago that all wheels got new pads and rotors. Geez time flies, I coulda sworn it wasn't that long ago, I'm now wondering if I was in a coma and missed 2 years of my life.

Anyways, no, the receipt didn't say which brand, just that they're semi-metallic.

Now that I look at the records, those pads only lasted about 40,000 km (25,000 miles). That seems like a short life span doesn't it? And I really don't drive aggressively, always have smooth braking. What kind of mileage do you guys get before you need to change the brakes?

I think I really need to inspect myself to see if the tire shop guy was just trying to get me to do an expensive service...

[geniushanbiao]

Not only your driving habit but also the driving condition affects. For example you drive most local then your pads will wear faster. Also your shocks&struts condition, tire size/type, and load all affect this. I just bought my new beetle last May and replaced all pads and rotors till now I only put 10000 miles on it so I can't say. But I have another Mercury Sable station wagon I got it on Feb 2009 then I replaced all pads and rotors. Now I already put 60000 miles on it and the front pads still has more than a half and the rear pads just worn out.

Originally Posted by nitroman

Sorry my mistake. I checked my records and it was actually 4 years ago that all wheels got new pads and rotors. Geez time flies, I coulda sworn it wasn't that long ago, I'm now wondering if I was in a coma and missed 2 years of my life.

Anyways, no, the receipt didn't say which brand, just that they're semi-metallic.

Now that I look at the records, those pads only lasted about 40,000 km (25,000 miles). That seems like a short life span doesn't it? And I really don't drive aggressively, always have smooth braking. What kind of mileage do you guys get before you need to change the brakes?

I think I really need to inspect myself to see if the tire shop guy was just trying to get me to do an expensive service...

[nitroman]

Ahhh, ok that makes more sense now as I'm all city driving on this, with lots of short distances - my daughter's school which is only a few km away, then drive to work 15km away, grocery shopping on the way home, etc etc. I have new tires but they are the same size as stock. Good reminder that I should also inspect the struts & shocks as well, never thought of that either (learn something new everyday on this forum). Thanks for the tips.

[geniushanbiao]

Yes local driving is the No.1 killer of cars. It kills engine, transmission, shocks, and makes brake wear faster. A most highway car can last more than 300k miles but a most local car will have to get engine rebuilt under 150k miles. Consider this: you drive 10 miles highway if no traffic jam you only have to hit the brake when you take an exit; but a 10 miles local will most likely make you hit brake for 100 times.

Originally Posted by nitroman

Ahhh, ok that makes more sense now as I'm all city driving on this, with lots of short distances - my daughter's school which is only a few km away, then drive to work 15km away, grocery shopping on the way home, etc etc. I have new tires but they are the same size as stock. Good reminder that I should also inspect the struts & shocks as well, never thought of that either (learn something new everyday on this forum). Thanks for the tips.

[IndyTom]

Originally Posted by geniushanbiao

Yes local driving is the No.1 killer of cars. It kills engine, transmission, shocks, and makes brake wear faster. A most highway car can last more than 300k miles but a most local car will have to get engine rebuilt under 150k miles. Consider this: you drive 10 miles highway if no traffic jam you only have to hit the brake when you take an exit; but a 10 miles local will most likely make you hit brake for 100 times.

I think that is a bit overstated and generalized. There are a lot more factors involved than if the car is driven in city streets or the highway. I think it depends more on the person itself and how they take care of the vehicle and how they drive it. Some people like to ride their brakes. I see people all the time with their brake lights on. They have one foot on the brake and the other on the accellerator. Besides being totally unsafe those brakes will definitely not last very long regardless if they drive in the city or the highway. Others ride their clutch and wonder why it only lasts 9000 miles. People race their engines when they are cold thinking they are going to warm them up faster but all they are doing is putting excessive wear on their engines. Yes, the brakes will be used more in city traffic then on the highway but it is more important how you use them then how often. Also some people get brake pads that come in come cheap kit and wonder why they wear quickly. With everything else you get what you pay for. If you invest in a high quality pad and don't drive like a mad man those pads will last you a long while.

[geniushanbiao]

Oh yes I should make the assumption that with normal driving habits...

Originally Posted by IndyTom

I think that is a bit overstated and generalized. There are a lot more factors involved than if the car is driven in city streets or the highway. I think it depends more on the person itself and how they take care of the vehicle and how they drive it. Some people like to ride their brakes. I see people all the time with their brake lights on. They have one foot on the brake and the other on the accellerator. Besides being totally unsafe those brakes will definitely not last very long regardless if they drive in the city or the highway. Others ride their clutch and wonder why it only lasts 9000 miles. People race their engines when they are cold thinking they are going to warm them up faster but all they are doing is putting excessive wear on their engines. Yes, the brakes will be used more in city traffic then on the highway but it is more important how you use them then how often. Also some people get brake pads that come in come cheap kit and wonder why they wear quickly. With everything else you get what you pay for. If you invest in a high quality pad and don't drive like a mad man those pads will last you a long while.

[nitroman]

Just curious (another noob question), how does bad struts & shocks affect the brake pad wear? I thought it would just be a more bumpy ride .

Or is it a more indirect effect like as in bad struts & shocks will affect the way you drive, therefore affecting the way you use the brakes?

[geniushanbiao]

OK let me explain. A bad strut/shock will cause traction lose between the wheel and road. This will have 2 effects. First it will affect your control. The other is that it will make your brake distance longer. Since the brake distance is longer you will have a more rapid brake pad wear due to a longer brake abrasion time.

Originally Posted by nitroman

Just curious (another noob question), how does bad struts & shocks affect the brake pad wear? I thought it would just be a more bumpy ride .

Or is it a more indirect effect like as in bad struts & shocks will affect the way you drive, therefore affecting the way you use the brakes?