Do most Canadians know about this?

[Turboboy]

http://hsus.org/

[yellow99]

yea i had heard about it, Paul McCartney was talking on some late show about it too. Its pretty sad!

[Lunar2002]

Yes most of us do, and no it's not cruel. That orginzation is painting a bad picture of the seal hunt. I'm no expert, but what I do know is that it's part of a native tradition that has existed before Canada or the USA became countries. Also, they are not culling seals and trying to make them extinct. There are strict limits and controls, and the ones that are killed are a very small fraction of the total population.

The seal hunt is also an integral part of the economy for that region. I think they need to look at the whole picture before making such judgements.

[Turboboy]

Originally Posted by Lunar2002

Yes most of us do, and no it's not cruel. That orginzation is painting a bad picture of the seal hunt. I'm no expert, but what I do know is that it's part of a native tradition that has existed before Canada or the USA became countries. Also, they are not culling seals and trying to make them extinct. There are strict limits and controls, and the ones that are killed are a very small fraction of the total population.

The seal hunt is also an integral part of the economy for that region. I think they need to look at the whole picture before making such judgements.

What the "F" are you talking about?? Not cruel?

These are not natives and thousands and thousands are
being slaughtered!And it is not an integral part of
the economy. The Canadian government could stop it tomorrow
if they wanted to....do some research before you spew
out that crap!!! They are taking them from their mothers
and beating their heads in and skinning some still alive!
These hunters should die a slow miserable death and if
I can be of any help..................

[CrazyJames]

Originally Posted by Turboboy

What the "F" are you talking about?? Not cruel?

These are not natives and thousands and thousands are
being slaughtered!And it is not an integral part of
the economy. The Canadian government could stop it tomorrow
if they wanted to....do some research before you spew
out that crap!!! They are taking them from their mothers
and beating their heads in and skinning some still alive!
These hunters should die a slow miserable death and if
I can be of any help..................

Well, by reading Lunar2002's post he has a lot of it dead on for facts, how about you do some research before you jump to conclusions..


From the fisheries and oceans canada website here are some myths which you have quoted as truth..

Myth #2: Seals are being skinned alive.

Reality: The most recent Canadian Veterinary Medical Association (CVMA) Report and numerous reports mentioned by the Malouf Commission (1987) indicate that this is not true.

Sometimes a seal may appear to be moving after it has been killed; however seals have a swimming reflex that is active – even after death. This reflex falsely appears as though the animal is still alive when it is clearly dead – similar to the reflex in chickens.

Myth #3: Seals are not independent animals when they are killed – they still rely on their mothers and can’t even swim or fend for themselves.

Reality: Only weaned, self-reliant seals are hunted after they have been left by their mothers to fend for themselves.

The vast majority of harp seals are taken after more than 25 days of age, after their white coat has moulted. Harp seals have the ability to swim at this stage of development. They are also opportunistic feeders and prey on whatever food source in readily available to them.

Myth #6: The club – or hakapik – is a barbaric tool that has no place in today’s world.

Reality: Clubs have been used by sealers since the onset of the hunt hundreds of years ago. Hakapiks originated with Norwegian sealers who found it very effective. Over the years, studies conducted by the various veterinary experts, and American studies carried out between 1969 and 1972 on the Pribilof Islands hunt (Alaska) have consistently proven that the club or hakapik is an efficient tool designed to kill the animal quickly and humanely. A recent report in September, 2002, by the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association, had results that parallel these findings.

Myth #7: The methods used to kill seals are far less humane than those used to hunt or slaughter any other domestic or wild animal.

Reality: Hunting methods were studied by the Royal Commission on Sealing in Canada and they found that the clubbing of seals, when properly performed, is at least as humane as, and often more humane than, the killing methods used in commercial slaughterhouses, which are accepted by the majority of the public.

Myth #10: The seal hunt provides such low economic return for sealers that it is not an economically viable industry.

Reality: The landed value of seals was $16 million in 2004. Pelt prices as high as $70 have recently been recorded. Seals are a significant source of income for some individual sealers. The money is earned over a very short period. Sealing also creates employment opportunities for buying and processing plants.

While sealing income may seem negligible by some US or European standards, sealers themselves have stated that their income from sealing can represent from 25-35 per cent of their total annual income. Sealing also represents benefits to thousands of families in Eastern Canada at a time of year when other fishing options are unavailable or limited at best, in many remote, coastal communities.

Myth #16: The majority of Canadians are opposed to the seal hunt.

Reality: Animal rights groups currently campaigning against the seal hunt cite a 2004 Ipsos-Reid poll stating that 71 per cent of Canadians are opposed to the hunt. In fact, Canadians support federal policies regarding the seal hunt. An Ipsos-Reid survey conducted in February 2005 concluded that 60 per cent of Canadians are in favour of a responsible hunt. The survey methodology and results of this poll are available on request.

Here is some more information about the hunt...

If the only information that you are using for your views on this hunt is from sites such as http://hsus.org/ then you are sadly lacking a large ammount of information about the background of the hunt, and controls put in place to make certain that it does not go out of hand.

[Severecaraddict]

I made a post about this on Saturday: http://newbeetle.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6574

[Cody]

Regardless of whether or not these are seals that are "grown up, living on their own," I think it's cruel. I don't care if it's one seal, or 10,000. It's sick.

Why should people need to steal life from animals to feel better about themselves? What makes killing a small defenseless seal "fun" or "OK?" What makes killing animals "OK?"

Don't feed any bulls**t about controlling the population, either. Nature proceeds VERY nicely without humans coming in a fecking things up. It did long before us and it will until long after.

Cody

[FineExampl]

Does this mean i can't order seal meat from exoticmeats.com?? Guess i'll stick with rattlesnake.

Funny, people don't freak out like this about the overpopulation of cattle and other livestock for the sole purpose of slaughtering them for consumption. Yeah, you get a few hardcore PETA types, but for the most part it's like the whole "if i dont see it, it doesnt exist" mentality.

The bottom line is this. Wrong or right, those seals being killed is not affecting anyone in their day to day life. And why is it that they always have to show the little white infant seals? Those aren't even the ones being clubbed.

If anything, feel sad that something innocent has died. It's nobody's business what others do no matter how it affects a defenseless animal. What about the whales that eat them as they first try to swim? Isn't that just as cruel? Why not? Because it's not a human?

When they start clubbing human babies, than you can call me out and i'll be there picketing.

(yes i know i probably offended some people, but that's the way it goes. you'll just have to roll your eyes at me like i roll my eyes at you, if i offended you that is.)

One sealburger with cheese please!

[Severecaraddict]

Originally Posted by FineExampl

Does this mean i can't order seal meat from exoticmeats.com?? Guess i'll stick with rattlesnake.

Funny, people don't freak out like this about the overpopulation of cattle and other livestock for the sole purpose of slaughtering them for consumption.

Its because seal are "cute". I've yet to see a cow that I'd like to make a pet.

[FineExampl]

Originally Posted by Severecaraddict

Its because seal are "cute". I've yet to see a cow that I'd like to make a pet.

Well, that's kind of my point actually. If people started killing puppies with hatchets we'd have the same response. And we all know how there's no shortage in dogs. Same with rabbits. Cute and cuddly and i've had some as pets, but darnit if the rabbit meat at the supermarket isn't tempting.

[Severecaraddict]

Originally Posted by FineExampl

Well, that's kind of my point actually. If people started killing puppies with hatchets we'd have the same response.

DUH! Why do you think I won't touch Chinese /Vietnamese
food? I like to pet kitites and puppies, not eat them!

[Cody]

Originally Posted by FineExampl

The bottom line is this. Wrong or right, those seals being killed is not affecting anyone in their day to day life. And why is it that they always have to show the little white infant seals? Those aren't even the ones being clubbed.

If anything, feel sad that something innocent has died. It's nobody's business what others do no matter how it affects a defenseless animal. What about the whales that eat them as they first try to swim? Isn't that just as cruel? Why not? Because it's not a human?

Sorry, but I unequivocally disagree with your two main points in these parts.

1) I does not matter if the baby seals are being killed does not affect my day to day life in any visible way. Neither does children dying in Africa, China blowing up Washington, D.C., or any other thing that is or could happen. Heck, everyone could be dead except the poeple in my state, and that wouldn't really affect me anyways, would it?

2) It is everyone's business what others do. If it wasn't our business what others do, would it matter if a man killed beat his wife? If a lady had a child in a portable toilet? If the oil companies were polluting our atmosphere to choking point? Nope, doesn't seem to matter one bit, does it? It's just their business.

Sarcasm aside, there's no reason that anyone needs to cause more suffering in this world. We have our fair share of that without creating it.

Cody

[FineExampl]

I see your point, and i understand what you're getting at, i just don't agree with it. I know it's sad the seals are dying, but it's one place in the world one time a year. The seals are not endangered. This is not a case where something negative can come out of it other than the obvious. There are things we should protest, but taking food from a family's mouth by banning a tradition, humane or not, is wrong in it's own right.

The Canadian government will never outlaw this, nor would the US government. The might of the dollar far outweighs the might of the morality. This is the way of the world today, like it or not.

[Cody]

Aye, it may be "the way of the world today," as you state it, but by going along with it you have no hand in changing it.

Cody

[FineExampl]

Originally Posted by Cody

Aye, it may be "the way of the world today," as you state it, but by going along with it you have no hand in changing it.

Cody

I know, but as long as you see my point. My point is actually helping illustrate how the people this DOES affect feel. See, i don't worry myself with what other people do. People aren't being murdered and that's all i care about. The protesters need to just leave things they don't understand alone. I love and respect Mr. McCartney, but i don't agree with his politics. Banning the seal bopping is taking honest jobs away from good people and making them suffer. To me, that's more important than a few animals that hardly affect the ecosystem.

As i said, i'm sorry if i offend anyone, but some of us are missing the point that the other side is making. Judge not, lest ye be judged.

(Did John just quote scripture??? Must be a full moon out tonight.)

[Turboboy]

All of those "myths" and "facts"....all B.S. and doubletalk.
Read them man, "humanely clubbed" and "float after they are
shot"! I can go on and on but you can read. And the clubs are
"not so barbaric"....wtf? Then they wait till they are
"a little older" again...wtf? This is all told by the Canadian
Government(and we are to believe this crap)? They are just
twisting stuff around (sugar coating the torture that is
being exibited. Man, that is a useless friggin country all
around. Thanks for the help Canada....cowards.Mexico would
probably help us out more in a pinch than Canada.
I don't eat meat and I feel sorry for the whales and any other animals that are slaughtered. This head bashing is not neccessary. There are other ways they can earn but it's easy money for these cowards who need to take "3 to the back of the head" in my opinion. It's "killing babies" regardless!!!

[Lunar2002]

DUH! Why do you think I won't touch Chinese /Vietnamese
food? I like to pet kitites and puppies, not eat them!

First off, I found that comment to be extremely offensive and that should have no place anywhere. But I guess this highlights how some people dive head on into a topic without realizing the whole picture.

Just as a side note, Asian countries such as China and Vietnam have been consuming dog and other non-mainstream foods far longer than most places in the world became countries. I personally wouldn't eat dog meat, but it is a cultural aspect in some countries stemming from years of history, and your view comes from a very current perspective. You cannot make a tasteful and intellegent judgement on past historical/cultural behaviours based on views held in modern, and North-American centric views. It's not like one day people in Asia decided to eat dogs because you could buy them in a pet store. What would you think if I thought burgers were deemed barbaric because I have a cow as a pet?

Anyways back to the topic at hand...

For one, most people that are against the seal hunt don't really know what they are standing for, is it because seals are being killed, or how they are being killed?

Second, instead of attempting to stop the hunt 100%, and immediately, no protesters, or protesting organizations have provided:

a) A diplomatic solution in tems of sitting and talking it out with the parties involved without trying to throw some muscle around. Yes some will argue that people have tried to meet with political leaders, and so on, but do they and are they willing to provide alternatives, or consessions from their own side? Keep in mind that if you have been dong something for a long time, and that something is a part of your livlihood and in some cases, tradition and culture, how would you react to someone or some group showing up on your lawn demanding you to put a stop to whatever you were doing?

What if I wanted you to stop celebrating Thanksgiving because the Turkey is a sacred animal in my view, and should not be eaten? What if I showed up on your lawn with picket signs, or blocked your car from moving out of your driveway because of it? What if I got a movie star to show up at your door and demand that you stop celebrating Thanksgiving? Now wouldn't that be a slightly narrow sighted way to do things?

b) The long term impact on the parties directly affected by the stopage fo the hunt. Do the protesters want the hunters just to stop dead in their tracks and pickup somewhere else? do you think that would be easy? Do the protesters/organizations know about the economics of the region? Do they know how much this income can affect the families involved? Do they realize that the other industries in the region are all inter-connected in some way?

Would you tell a farmer to stop going to a side job when there is nothing to harvest?

Lastly,

This is all told by the Canadian
Government(and we are to believe this crap)? They are just
twisting stuff around (sugar coating the torture that is
being exibited. Man, that is a useless friggin country all
around. Thanks for the help Canada....cowards.Mexico would
probably help us out more in a pinch than Canada.

Stuff like this really promotes anti-Americanism. Can you honestly say that you trust your government (Iraq?), do they not sugar coat that issue? And how are we a useless country? Just because you don't like the seal hunt, that makes Canada and all Canadians a cowardly and useless country?

Also, that last line about Mexico, does that mean that you see Mexico as a degragaded country as well?

Contrary to what some of you anti-seal hunt posters have assumed, I am not a supporter of the seal hunt, I don't wear t-shirts with "let's go club some seals" on it. Neither do I have a problem with people protesting the seal hunt. However, my problem with the issue stems from negative protesting methods, and negative over-reaction.

To me, if you have a goal or a view that you want to push onto other people, that you better have the solution and the means to make the goal or view into a feasible reality. You can't expect people to do as you say without a plan to execute and alternatives just in case. You can't expect anyone to drop everything they've been doing and say, "ok".

Just as I could easily demand that you should immediately go and buy a something like a BMW, otherwise I'll gather a group of BMW owners to chastise you until you do. Does that make me right?

Also, if you are opposed to ideals, such as the seal hunt, enough to make discriminatory comments about culture and/or religion, than you'd better spend the time, money and sweat to get your @$$ on site and actively participate in the cause, otherwise post positional opinions without slandernig other views that don't agree with yours.

[Severecaraddict]

Originally Posted by Lunar2002

First off, I found that comment to be extremely offensive and that should have no place anywhere. But I guess this highlights how some people dive head on into a topic without realizing the whole picture.

Why do you find it offensive? Do you eat dogs and cats? The whole picture doesn't mean squat to me. If you have a pet cow or pig and want to find people who eat beef barbaric, that's YOUR business. FYI: I don't like the taste of beef, steak, or pork, so I don't eat it. I don't care what other cultures do in regards to their food. If they want to make dog poop their delicacy, then more power to them. It doesn’t mean that I or anyone else has to follow. If I make a crack about someone eating dogs, cats, or poop its not because I’m not enlightened on that society’s culture or the history of it, its that I’m not going to eat cat, dog, or poop. So for you to say otherwise is ridiculous.

[Lunar2002]

Why do you find it offensive? Do you eat dogs and cats? The whole picture doesn't mean squat to me. If you have a pet cow or pig and want to find people who eat beef barbaric, that's YOUR business. FYI: I don't like the taste of beef, steak, or pork, so I don't eat it. I don't care what other cultures do in regards to their food. If they want to make dog poop their delicacy, then more power to them. It doesn’t mean that I or anyone else has to follow. If I make a crack about someone eating dogs, cats, or poop its not because I’m not enlightened on that society’s culture or the history of it, its that I’m not going to eat cat, dog, or poop. So for you to say otherwise is ridiculous.

It's not what you stated taht I have the issue with, it's how you've said it. You have written your response in a way to implicate that all Chinese/Vietnamese eats dogs. Yet once again, the issue was taken out of context by use of agressive response.

Fore example:

If they want to make dog poop their delicacy, then more power to them.

Was the example of dog poop nessecary?

It doesn’t mean that I or anyone else has to follow.

I never once stated that I expected you or anyone else to follow my view. I'm posting in hopes of good discussion, and not have to resort to slagging or insulting others.

The whole picture doesn't mean squat to me.

Why couldn't you post, "The whole picture doesn't mean anything to me."? Saying that other views mean "squat" is again meant or to imply that my view was inferior to yours, as opposed to being different.

I'm not saying not to post your views, just tone down the narrative so that the discussion doesn't escalate into a flame fest, that's all.

[FineExampl]

WOW is today Monday? I thought it was Tuesday.
Relax guys, it's all good. It's obviously a sensitive subject. We can all get along and have different opinions.

Lunar buddy, i think that's just how our buddy Severe talks. I wouldn't worry about it. He's good people.