99 NB speaker replacement

[buggie]

This may be a dumb question but I'll ask anyway.

Situation: I want to replace my blown door speakers with non-OEM speakers but I am keeping the factory non-monsoon head unit.

Question: Is there a wiring adapter for NON-OEM speakers or do I just cut the OEM plug off the existing wiring harness and solder on the appropriate connector for the speakers being installed?

Thanks in advance!

[Smileybug]

I just replaced the speakers in my '99 a few weeks ago with some mb quartz speakers. No adaptor. Just hook the wires up to the new speakers! I had to do some modifying because my "new" speakers were 5 1/4" instead of 6 1/2" (got them for free in a transaction for our Mk1 Jetta ). But it was still a fairly easy thing. Taking the door apart was a pain more than anything.

[buggie]

So the connector that is attached to my OEM speakers must be standard in the industry then. Thanks, and sorry for the ignorance, I worked on aircraft for 25 years and had little time for audio upgrades.

[terranova]

Thinking of replacing the stock speakers with some new component speakers, but I'm not certain as to what the speaker mounting depth limit would be to put in some new 6.5" speakers in the front doors.

Been looking at some FOCAL 6.5" component speakers with spec'd mounting depths of anywhere from 2 9/16" to 2 14/16".

One or to audio sites state that the front door speaker mounting depth on a 99 GLS is 2.5".

Can anyone confirm if this 2.5" speaker mounting depth is correct - i.e. FOCAL 6.5" component speakers won't fit ?

[squishfly]

Originally Posted by buggie

So the connector that is attached to my OEM speakers must be standard in the industry then. Thanks, and sorry for the ignorance, I worked on aircraft for 25 years and had little time for audio upgrades.

Really? I'm going into aviation matinence myself.

[sean_fabanich]

the orignial speakers have a decently thick spacer built into them. if you just try to mount a 6.5 into the hole you might have issue with the window. just cut, or get someone else, to cut you a mdf spacer. thats why i eventually did....just becareful when you mount them...if yo9u dont center them on the speaker cutout might have an issue putting you door panel back on cause it interferes with the edge of the fuel, trunk release switch.

before i made those i used 1 inch spacers made for a neon( i believe) made by metra. you can do that and just cut off the mounting brackets and zip some self tapers thru the pastic ring.

bottom line is...if you use spacer you should havce no trouble with clearence.

[terranova]

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

the orignial speakers have a decently thick spacer built into them. if you just try to mount a 6.5 into the hole you might have issue with the window. just cut, or get someone else, to cut you a mdf spacer. thats why i eventually did....just becareful when you mount them...if yo9u dont center them on the speaker cutout might have an issue putting you door panel back on cause it interferes with the edge of the fuel, trunk release switch.

before i made those i used 1 inch spacers made for a neon( i believe) made by metra. you can do that and just cut off the mounting brackets and zip some self tapers thru the pastic ring.

bottom line is...if you use spacer you should havce no trouble with clearence.

Thnks for the info on the spacer...appreciate it.

I'm trying to nail down this mounting depth as best I can in advance as I was thinking about ordering some Focals on-line from the U.S. ( the Cdn prices up here for Focals are much higher ! ).

And I'm a bit concerned I might order them from the U.S. only to not have them fit - and I'd like to avoid the hassle of returning them if I could.

Even though the 99 spec shows a 2.5" depth, do you think a Focal speaker with a 2 3/4" or 2 7/8" mounting depth might fit in my 99 if, as you suggest,spacer adjustments can be made ?

Or is that cutting it a bit too close ...fit wise ?

Welcome your thoughts.

[sean_fabanich]

if you use a 3/4 or 1 inch spacer there should be plenty of room...plus it will help the positive wave of sound from the speaker enter the cabin....

but if i may...

unless your gonna go nuts with your application and install...i personally think your wasting you money on focals unless you give them the proper enviroment to shine. the doors of the beetle are wide open...no enclosure at all...so the negative wave gets lost in the panel....

i know many people say they get just fine sound out of the doors...but if your truly picky enough about sound to buy focals because they actually sound amazing then i think youll be unhappy with your final result.

id suggest finding a vw parts place and buy the two dash panels from a monsoon systme...as they havec a speaker in those panels and the regular system does not. you can replace that speaker with something better..it will significantly improve you sound quality. you could also just alter your panels if you feel frisky. in the name of good sound itd be worth the time.

also...are you going to be running them off the factory radio? if so please avoid using the focals...unless you just have money to blow...or expect to buy a better radio, amp, and so on to properly power them..

otherwise, if yuou dont plan on using an amp....get a set of low rms power (sub 60 watts rms req) speakers.... boston s series work great....but please dont run a set of focals without having the quality clean power to do it...ur just peeing your money away...

anyways....let me know if i can further help

[terranova]

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

if you use a 3/4 or 1 inch spacer there should be plenty of room...plus it will help the positive wave of sound from the speaker enter the cabin....

I saw your comments below on Focals - I may have to reconsider whether to go with them or not. Thnks. Appreciate the feedback.

Either way, if I DO opt to to with some replacement component speakers, I was simply concerned as to what additional room - if any - I might have beyond the stated 2.5" mounting depth.

Based on your advice, it seems mounting depth shouldn't be a major stumbling block....and that's good to know.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

but if i may...

unless your gonna go nuts with your application and install...i personally think your wasting you money on focals unless you give them the proper enviroment to shine. the doors of the beetle are wide open...no enclosure at all...so the negative wave gets lost in the panel....

Is this something like Dynamat soundproofing material can alleviate ?

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

i know many people say they get just fine sound out of the doors...but if your truly picky enough about sound to buy focals because they actually sound amazing then i think youll be unhappy with your final result.

id suggest finding a vw parts place and buy the two dash panels from a monsoon systme...as they havec a speaker in those panels and the regular system does not. you can replace that speaker with something better..it will significantly improve you sound quality. you could also just alter your panels if you feel frisky. in the name of good sound itd be worth the time.

Not exactly sure what you mean by that - could you elaborate ?

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

also...are you going to be running them off the factory radio? if so please avoid using the focals...unless you just have money to blow...or expect to buy a better radio, amp, and so on to properly power them..

No...there is an aftermarket Kenwood HU in the car now.

It's the Kenwood eXcelon KDC-X993

Kenwood KDC-X993 (kdcx993) - Car Stereo In-Dash Receiver at Sonic Electronix - Sonic Electronix

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

otherwise, if yuou dont plan on using an amp....get a set of low rms power (sub 60 watts rms req) speakers.... boston s series work great....but please dont run a set of focals without having the quality clean power to do it...ur just peeing your money away...anyways....let me know if i can further help

Actually, the amp is part of my problem as well.

I picked up a Kenwood amp at Xmas time on sale - a 4 channel 100w RMS amp.

Kenwood Excelon X600F 1200W 4-ch Power Amplifier Car Amplifiers X600F X 600 F car auto audio amplifier amp power channel stereo for car cheap dual best

It's still sitting in the box until I can figure out to how to best match a component speaker RMS w to the amp's 100w RMS - and then of course, a possible subwoofer.

So, as far as components go, my problems was 2-fold..

- find components to accommodate the 2.5" mounting depth

- once I found speakers that should fit, then decide on the appropriate watts RMS to best match with a 100 watts RMS amp.

Some things I've read suggest it's O.K. to overpower speakers - i.e a 60w, 70w, 80w RMS speaker powered by a 100 w RMS amp is fine. Some say you should ' match it ' - 100RMS speaker to 100RMS amp. And, yet others claim underpowering is O K - i.e you can run a 100w RMS speaker with a 50w RMS amp.

So, I'm not sure what RMS w the comps should be - any help you could provide to shed light in this issue as well would be greatly appreciated.

[sean_fabanich]

ok....let see...where to start.

imagine behind your door panel...there is a secondary panel..that houses the motor for the window and the speaker...behind that is nothing...now taking out that second panel would be a huge hassle...and even if you did it and then dynamatted the entire inside of the door..while it would help....i dont thing it would help enough to go thru the hassle....for anytype of bass to mid base response you need to have back pressure or a radio and amp that is very customizable...i get decent bass now from my mb quart premiums...basically equivalent to free air 8s that ive had in other cars...but the issue is the road noise you get in the beetle...if you drive over 50...all the mid bass and bass youll get from those front speakers will esentially be lost...unless you put your ear next to it.


i tried those things that went behind the speakers basket...to isolate the rear wave...but they didnt do anything really...just muffled the sound a bit...i cant remember what they aer called right now...darn it

anyways....if your looking to get decent midbass from your front speakers i would suggest putting them in the panel on the dash. simply take take out the panels....where there is another panel below it...see where there is enough depth to put the speakers in the top panel and not toucxh the bottom...and then cut and modify that top panel til you have the speaker in there..

if your confused on what panels i mean...they are the panels that are most likely smooth plastic....inbetween the panel with the defroster vent in it and the rough feel part of the dash. those panels easy remove by taking out the middle piece by pushing it towards the windsheild. under it are three t15 head screws. remove them...then the panels to the right and left pop out. at least do that much to see what you getting into...cutting the panels would be the most difficult.(you can search alternate directions for this by looking up instructions on how to change your cabin air filter....its below the right panel)

thats a pretty drastic step to take...but i truly beleive its the best way to go to get good sound....if you wanted focals you expect good sound...take it from me its difficult to get good full range sound from the factory speaker location.

now at least you have a good headunit...i have the kdchd942u. which is very similar...

the time alignment feature on your radio is key....it will greatly increase the quality of sound you get in the car.

if your unsure on what setting to use and how to use them...please let me know...i can help...as ive used and changed them daily till i found what i liked.

also...if your stuck on using the factory locations...at least consider doing a surface mount on a better tweeter on that dash panel behind the little round defrost vent for the windows...it took me longer to take the car apart then to do the install of my tweeters...which ill try and upload a pic of later today....check it out later..its one of the other first threads under car audio section. and the radio customization of sound really gets them to sound good...(if you plan on doing this....eithre get the same speakers i have...mbquart premium pvi components.(i mounted the rears as 2 ways speakers, and the front as component..) or becareful in tweeter selection...silk would be my suggestion..unless you get an oversided neodymium or aluminum which might not sound as bright.



on thing to keep in mind is that an amp rated at 100x4 only puts out 100 watts rms.

chances are with most companies, that is an ideal conditions rating...ei...14.4 volt (which you wont get unless you run the amp withing a foot or two of the batter) youll probably get 12-13 volts if you run power wire to the trunk. so that will drop your 100 watts rms. and so will rca output strenth. yours are pretty powerful....most amps usually only accept up to 5 or 8v. so you are good there...but if you dont get great rcas...(which i suggest buying monster 6 channel set) then youll havce some loss....

an amp can only amplify what it gets....the signal power and the power the amp sees dictates this.

clean power is key. a speaker can produce a full, unclipped wave at probably more then its rated rms power. but if you play a clipping signal at a quarter the rated rms...it will sooner or later burn up the voicecoil of the speaker.

my suggestion would be to not harp so much on rms values. i have a diamond audio 4 channel. 150 x4. and my speakers are rated at 125 rms i think. but the gain is barely turned up....gain will control your output....tuning that gain is themost difficult part of an install...its not volume...althou it does control the volume...

other factors control how much gain you apply to a channel on an amp. in an ideal sq car you want the front speakers to be the dominant speakers...and the rears to only be noticeable if the were to cut out. so even if you put the same speakers in all your locations...youll be putting less gain (wattage) to the rear speakers then you will the fronts....now in our cars its even exagerrated more...cause your ear is so much closer to the rear speakers then the front...and the rear speakres have a better(still sucks) enclosure space for the sound to reproduce.

i hope your following me here.

i have personal experience with the mb quarts pvi series, and pioneer tsd and tsc series speakers...they would be my suggestion to anyone who is going to amp the speakers....as they sound awesome....they might not be focals..but in our application you will be pissed with the hundreds of dollars you waste.

check out mb quart premium, pioneer tsc and tsd series, and jbl(their better line...gto?)

you should be able to find these brands and styles online for a great price...there are other great speakers out there...but youll pay twice as much and get the same sound..whats the point of that.

the mb quart probably has the nicest tweeter by far thou...using there widespere technology. i think mine are called pvi 216 or something like that.

only issue i had when i installed them is the baskets are kinda soft..and if you over torque a screw into the aluminum brackets in the back panels then yhou can distort the round shape of the speaker...and make it soudn like its blown. i ended up using mdf spacers back there...esentially the flexibilty of the aluminum was too soft and bent the speaker if it was overtighten. and all is good.

let me know if i can help any more...

[sean_fabanich]

i didnt proof read that last entry....sorry guys...im going to take a pic or two of the tweeter install now..

[terranova]

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

ok....let see...where to start.

imagine behind your door panel...there is a secondary panel..that houses the motor for the window and the speaker...behind that is nothing...now taking out that second panel would be a huge hassle...and even if you did it and then dynamatted the entire inside of the door..while it would help....i dont thing it would help enough to go thru the hassle....for anytype of bass to mid base response you need to have back pressure or a radio and amp that is very customizable...i get decent bass now from my mb quart premiums...basically equivalent to free air 8s that ive had in other cars...but the issue is the road noise you get in the beetle...if you drive over 50...all the mid bass and bass youll get from those front speakers will esentially be lost...unless you put your ear next to it.

First....just want to say thanks for the lengthy and detailed reply ...really appreciate it.

Interesting.

Then I guess that issue of losing mid bass and bass would make the strong case for adding a subwoofer.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

i tried those things that went behind the speakers basket...to isolate the rear wave...but they didnt do anything really...just muffled the sound a bit...i cant remember what they aer called right now...darn it

anyways....if your looking to get decent midbass from your front speakers i would suggest putting them in the panel on the dash. simply take take out the panels....where there is another panel below it...see where there is enough depth to put the speakers in the top panel and not toucxh the bottom...and then cut and modify that top panel til you have the speaker in there..

I'm assume you're talking about smaller speakers - i.e 4" instead of 6.5 " for the dash ?

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

if your confused on what panels i mean...they are the panels that are most likely smooth plastic....inbetween the panel with the defroster vent in it and the rough feel part of the dash. those panels easy remove by taking out the middle piece by pushing it towards the windsheild. under it are three t15 head screws. remove them...then the panels to the right and left pop out. at least do that much to see what you getting into...cutting the panels would be the most difficult.(you can search alternate directions for this by looking up instructions on how to change your cabin air filter....its below the right panel)

thats a pretty drastic step to take...but i truly beleive its the best way to go to get good sound....if you wanted focals you expect good sound...take it from me its difficult to get good full range sound from the factory speaker location.

Not sure if doing anything beyond simply keeping the speaker location in the door is an option as yet....as it is, I'm not to mechanically inclined, so I'm probably going to be using someone I know who's worked in a car audio shop to do the speaker / amp / ( possible ) subwoofer install for me ...he popped in the HU for me earlier.

I don't suppose there is a ' how to ' of someone who has cut out room for dash speakers is there ?

Suppose I might be able to get the installer I have mind to see if he could work something on cutting some room for the dash speakers.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

now at least you have a good headunit...i have the kdchd942u. which is very similar...

the time alignment feature on your radio is key....it will greatly increase the quality of sound you get in the car.

if your unsure on what setting to use and how to use them...please let me know...i can help...as ive used and changed them daily till i found what i liked.

How so ?

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

also...if your stuck on using the factory locations...at least consider doing a surface mount on a better tweeter on that dash panel behind the little round defrost vent for the windows...it took me longer to take the car apart then to do the install of my tweeters...which ill try and upload a pic of later today....check it out later..its one of the other first threads under car audio section. and the radio customization of sound really gets them to sound good...(if you plan on doing this....eithre get the same speakers i have...mbquart premium pvi components.(i mounted the rears as 2 ways speakers, and the front as component..) or becareful in tweeter selection...silk would be my suggestion..unless you get an oversided neodymium or aluminum which might not sound as bright.

Is a non surface mount for tweeters that much of an issue in terms of sound quality in your view ? How different is it in terms of sound quality between the 2 mounts ?

As for the tweeters being neodymium or aluminum or silk etc., I assume whatever component set I opt for will have those sort of tweeter specs locked in.

Are you suggesting it might be better to buy tweeter speakers separately in order to get a better ' build quality ' of tweeter ?

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

on thing to keep in mind is that an amp rated at 100x4 only puts out 100 watts rms.

chances are with most companies, that is an ideal conditions rating...ei...14.4 volt (which you wont get unless you run the amp withing a foot or two of the batter) youll probably get 12-13 volts if you run power wire to the trunk. so that will drop your 100 watts rms. and so will rca output strenth. yours are pretty powerful....most amps usually only accept up to 5 or 8v. so you are good there...but if you dont get great rcas...(which i suggest buying monster 6 channel set) then youll havce some loss....

Thanks for the heads up on this.

To be honest, I hadn't given too much thought to cables up until now.....guess I'll have to add that to the list of things to look in to.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

an amp can only amplify what it gets....the signal power and the power the amp sees dictates this.

clean power is key. a speaker can produce a full, unclipped wave at probably more then its rated rms power. but if you play a clipping signal at a quarter the rated rms...it will sooner or later burn up the voicecoil of the speaker.

Cam you give me a brief description of how an amp / speaker RMS combo can lead to clipping ?

I see clipping mentioned a lot, and I don't think I really understand what it is and it's implications for a speaker's lifespan.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

my suggestion would be to not harp so much on rms values. i have a diamond audio 4 channel. 150 x4. and my speakers are rated at 125 rms i think. but the gain is barely turned up....gain will control your output....tuning that gain is themost difficult part of an install...its not volume...althou it does control the volume...

Gain - I keep seeing that mentioned a lot too.

I'm afraid i don't grasp that term either.

I'm assuming it simply means you can adjust the power emitted by the amplifier not to exceed certain limits ...as so not to greatly over power a speaker ?

Am I close ?

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

other factors control how much gain you apply to a channel on an amp. in an ideal sq car you want the front speakers to be the dominant speakers...and the rears to only be noticeable if the were to cut out. so even if you put the same speakers in all your locations...youll be putting less gain (wattage) to the rear speakers then you will the fronts....now in our cars its even exagerrated more...cause your ear is so much closer to the rear speakers then the front...and the rear speakres have a better(still sucks) enclosure space for the sound to reproduce.

So, in a context where I have an amp, upgrade the front speakers and perhaps go for a sub - then upgrading the rears probably isn't necessary ?

Actually, the thought of the space a sub would take up in the NB has me wondering...the trunk is always full of stuff now as it is ...now sure how a sub would fit in.

Do you think an amp, upgrade front speakers, upgrade rear speakers and NO sub is viable in terms of producing good ( i.e with some decent bass from front and rear only ) sound ?

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

i hope your following me here.

i have personal experience with the mb quarts pvi series, and pioneer tsd and tsc series speakers...they would be my suggestion to anyone who is going to amp the speakers....as they sound awesome....they might not be focals..but in our application you will be pissed with the hundreds of dollars you waste.

check out mb quart premium, pioneer tsc and tsd series, and jbl(their better line...gto?)

you should be able to find these brands and styles online for a great price...there are other great speakers out there...but youll pay twice as much and get the same sound..whats the point of that.

Thanks for the leads ...I'll check all those out.

Someone I spoke with also suggested Clarion ( SRP1620M....70w RMS ) , Kenwood ( XR S17P...100w RMS ) , JL audio ( TR 650 CSi...50W RMS ), Polk ( db6501.....100wRMS ) and Alpine R series components ( a lot of people seem to like these Alpine SPR 17S ...though I think they are 110 RMS rated speakers ) ...so I've definitely got some homework to do.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

the mb quart probably has the nicest tweeter by far thou...using there widespere technology. i think mine are called pvi 216 or something like that.

only issue i had when i installed them is the baskets are kinda soft..and if you over torque a screw into the aluminum brackets in the back panels then yhou can distort the round shape of the speaker...and make it soudn like its blown. i ended up using mdf spacers back there...esentially the flexibilty of the aluminum was too soft and bent the speaker if it was overtighten. and all is good.

let me know if i can help any more...

Actually, everything I have read about mb quart in terms of reviews has been very good.

Listen, one more time, many thanks for the considerable time and effort you put in to putting together this detailed reply...it's really appreciated.

[sean_fabanich]

ok....first. im glad to try to help. i love good sound. so all i can do is help others that are passionate about it not make the same mistakes i have made.

ive had a few different sub woofer set ups in the car.

first i had a diamond audio d3 in a diamond audio vented enclosure...took up half the trunk....but sounded amazing. probably the nicest single sub ever heard outside of a jlw7 series.

always wanted to try the d6 or d9 (hex pro) line...but never have.

then i went and built a box for 2 tens that went into my spare tire well. sounds incredible...very little outside vibration...covered everything great....and you could really crank it...(miss that set up) but i felt like i was pushing my luck without a spare...so i sold it for profit

tried two below par sony 8s..a freind had em laying around...and they sucked.

then a kicker l5 12 in the kicker ported box....sounded great. but again ate even more room...and im a little more tight sound then loud sloppy sound...and this sub is loud...but a lil sloppy. great for hip hop...not so great for country or classic rock

i just built a box for an mb quart 8. half cubic foot. i think outside dimensions were 17 x 9 x 8 roughly. for now its just sitting int he trunk...but tomrrow or the next day ill most likely mount it to my trunk seperater rear deck thingy. it will hang down and impede the trunk a little...but the best idea i could come up with. ill post pitures when its done. for clean tight bass....and a lil kick it seems perfect. enables me to cut the freq going to the door speakers at a higher freq and drive them a bit harder.

anyways.

i really dont know which way to suggest you go with the front speakers. i like the idea of puttin them in the front dash panels. but like you said it seems youd have to go to a smaller speaker...which means less mid bass...you could probably do a 6.5 inch...but it would be darn near the center of the car. while the fabrication and cuttng of the panels would be easy...there would be alot of it...not so sure its worth all the modification...and the annoying reflection of the speakers on the windshield might be more annoykng then anything.

so all in all i recommend cutting 3/4 inch mdf spacer rings for the doors and putting in an aftermarket component set.

and simply mount the tweeters on the dash, i did use a little mount to angle the tweeters into the car more...but the windsheild would most likely do the job if it were set into the dash panel....i think the tweeter is all id bother putting in the dash...but the stock location definetly is not worth using...high freqs are so directional it helps to have them playing at you...not across the dash 3 or 4 feet in front of you. again you can see pics of this install and my old ten set up in two of the other recent threads...one entitle tweeter placement blah blah blah, and the other is about sub enclosures...i think they are still on the first page of the car audio section. so im not gonna take the time to link them. sorry. haha

ok...what was your next question.

alright. the time alignment setting on your radio i assume is the same as mine. im not at the car so i cant tell you the steps to get there...but if you get into the set up area. you can change the cabin type. origianlly i used the hatchback or compact setting, but found over time i prefer the suv setting. so set that. then go into the time align or distance setting....it lets you set distances for whatever speakers you have turned on in one of the other menus. set front speakers to roughly 4 feet....thats the distance from the speaker to roughly the middle of the car at ear level. then set the rear speakers to roughly 2 feet... and if you had a sub anywhere from 5 to 6 feet.

this aligns the sound output, trust me it makes a big difference.

if you ever give it a try...shoot me a pm and get my number...i can talk you thru it over the phone.

i kinda addressed the tweeter mount question...but the tweeter material is something youll want to look into. most better companies either offer different speaker sets with different material tweeters for direct sound or indirect sound. if you do the mount similar to how i did then you def want silk, or something softer...(im not sure what mb uses...but its great...) diamond audio has sets that come with either silk or aluminum...etc. id just buy a set that comes with the type of tweeter you want.

when buying rcas you can get a cheap set instore...or go online and search around and get a great set for darn near the same price. so just shop around. i suggst getting a 6 channel set if you think you might ever do a sub....if thats completely out of the question do a 4 channel set.

of course there is an exception here....you could chose to do a small sub...like an 8...and run the rear speakers off the radio, and the fronts of 2 channels of your amp, and bridge the other two channels of your amp to run your sub (a decent 8 usually only need 125 to 150 rms at most) so in that case you only need a 4 channel set...but the price difference is negligible when you shop around online....so i say just get the 6 channel and you never have to worry about goin thru the pain in the ass running of rcas in a nb again.

clipping has to do with the sinusoidal wave. for clean sound you want a smooth wave that goes up and down smoothly...almost like how youd see a heart monitor look. but smoother. any flat parts of the wave is clipping....that wave that goes up and down....and looks like a u connected to an upsidedown u, and so on....is the carrier wave...then the signal wave(what the speaker plays) is on that wave. its all a bit technical...but if the amp is underpowered...or the signal wave is being pushed to hard (the gain is turned up to much) then you get distortion. imagine if you went and turned your radio all the way up...the sound get distorted...moreso because the signal is clipping and the speaker cant play a wave correctly unless its smooth. if there are flat parts of the wave...aka clipped parts...then the speaker usually will sound bad and burn up the voicecoil. so again. dont over do matching rms numbers....find a speaker you like, or a speaker that everyone recommends...get it, do your best to get a good signal via good rcas and good power wire to the amp...and let someone adjust the gain so you dont get a clipped signal to them...and they will sound good.

i hope that made sense...if not...let me know...and ill take another swing at that.

id say look for any speaker you like that requires anywhere from 60 watts rms to 125 watts rms....the gain will be turned up more for a higher power speaker unless its clipping.

jls are great, but youll pay for them...just like focals.

polks are good....but not made by polk anymore...directed bought them. they are a good company, but you wont spend much more to get a definetly better speaker.

alpine used to be fantastic....but when best buy started carrying them their production was pushed and the quality of the product build itself suffered in my opion. the do make great stuff. but if im buying online, and i dont want to worry about getting a bummed pair. i wouldnt buy alpine. again youll slighly over pay for these. i only recommnd type r or better.

there is nothing wrong with clarions or kenwoods either, i just think you can do better and not really spend any more.

check out mb quart pvi 216, i think.
check out the pioneer tsc and tsd series
check out boston
check out diamond audio (best speakers ive ever heard)
ive heard good things about re audio too, and a million different other brands...

just get some suggestions, then realize there is a million different options, try to get suggestions from peopel who have similar taste in good sound.

only you know what you want to spend, all i can say is i got a 500 dollar pair of speakers for 140 bucks, so y buy a 100 dollar pair of speakers for 100, when you can get savings like that.

i also bought a 800 dollar amp for 220. its all a matter of your patience and ability to find good deals.

i like jl, but i hate getting what everyone else wants...i like to get the stuff no one knows about, so in my opion, get diamond audio or mb quart....few people on the street know about em, you can get em much cheaper online, and they are good good stuff.

and brands like eclipse and alpine, while they are good, aret what they once were, and stand on there old reputation...not current quality...althou they are still good, and youd probably be happy with them, even thou youd probaby get a set of diamonds for the same price.

sorry again for all the typos....not even gonna proof read this one...hope it all makes sense....let me know what else i can help with..or clear up. haha

good luck

[sean_fabanich]

oh yeah....

i also hear great things about image dynamics.

i guess if i were starting over again. id look into diamond audio and image dynamics first. then price compare to mb quart and the pioneer tsc/tsd series.

sonic electronics is a great sight to do some research, also check woofersetc, and online car stereo, and even vminnovations. if i think of any other sites ill post em

[terranova]

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

ok....first. im glad to try to help. i love good sound. so all i can do is help others that are passionate about it not make the same mistakes i have made.

Mistakes are made be us all......you know what they say .........hindsight is 20 / 20.

Once again...many thanks for yet another great detailed post .....much appreciated.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

ive had a few different sub woofer set ups in the car.

first i had a diamond audio d3 in a diamond audio vented enclosure...took up half the trunk....but sounded amazing. probably the nicest single sub ever heard outside of a jlw7 series.

always wanted to try the d6 or d9 (hex pro) line...but never have.

then i went and built a box for 2 tens that went into my spare tire well. sounds incredible...very little outside vibration...covered everything great....and you could really crank it...(miss that set up) but i felt like i was pushing my luck without a spare...so i sold it for profit

tried two below par sony 8s..a freind had em laying around...and they sucked.

then a kicker l5 12 in the kicker ported box....sounded great. but again ate even more room...and im a little more tight sound then loud sloppy sound...and this sub is loud...but a lil sloppy. great for hip hop...not so great for country or classic rock

i just built a box for an mb quart 8. half cubic foot. i think outside dimensions were 17 x 9 x 8 roughly. for now its just sitting int he trunk...but tomrrow or the next day ill most likely mount it to my trunk seperater rear deck thingy. it will hang down and impede the trunk a little...but the best idea i could come up with. ill post pitures when its done. for clean tight bass....and a lil kick it seems perfect. enables me to cut the freq going to the door speakers at a higher freq and drive them a bit harder.

So, in terms of subwoofer size - in keeping with trying to keep the footprint as small as possible - do you think an 8" sub is adequate ? Have seen some commentary that 10" is the minimum you should go with in most small cars, with 12" being an ideal size. That said, I have some friends with pick-up trucks who have an 8" sub ( like the JL Audio CP108LG-W3v3 ...below ) in their cab and they love it.

JL Audio CP108LG-W3v3 FlatWedge™ slot-ported enclosure with one 8" W3v3 subwoofer at Crutchfield Signature

Also, do think you could get enough of a bass response by forgoing a sub altogether - i.e just have 2 front components and 2 rear fill speakers powered by the 4 channel amp and NO sub ?

Or is a sub still a ' must have ' in a small space as it is in a Beetle ?

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

i really dont know which way to suggest you go with the front speakers. i like the idea of puttin them in the front dash panels. but like you said it seems youd have to go to a smaller speaker...which means less mid bass...you could probably do a 6.5 inch...but it would be darn near the center of the car. while the fabrication and cuttng of the panels would be easy...there would be alot of it...not so sure its worth all the modification...and the annoying reflection of the speakers on the windshield might be more annoykng then anything.so all in all i recommend cutting 3/4 inch mdf spacer rings for the doors and putting in an aftermarket component set.

Based on what you said above, I think you're probably right - an aftermarket component set in the doors would be the simplest way to go.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

and simply mount the tweeters on the dash, i did use a little mount to angle the tweeters into the car more...but the windsheild would most likely do the job if it were set into the dash panel....i think the tweeter is all id bother putting in the dash...but the stock location definetly is not worth using...high freqs are so directional it helps to have them playing at you...not across the dash 3 or 4 feet in front of you.

Hmmmm......good point ...never thought of that.

Do you think most Beetle owners avoid / bypass the stock location of the tweeter when they upgrgade with front comp speakers ?

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

again you can see pics of this install and my old ten set up in two of the other recent threads...one entitle tweeter placement blah blah blah, and the other is about sub enclosures...i think they are still on the first page of the car audio section. so im not gonna take the time to link them. sorry. haha

No worries...I'll check those threads out ...thanks.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

ok...what was your next question.

alright. the time alignment setting on your radio i assume is the same as mine. im not at the car so i cant tell you the steps to get there...but if you get into the set up area. you can change the cabin type. origianlly i used the hatchback or compact setting, but found over time i prefer the suv setting. so set that. then go into the time align or distance setting....it lets you set distances for whatever speakers you have turned on in one of the other menus. set front speakers to roughly 4 feet....thats the distance from the speaker to roughly the middle of the car at ear level. then set the rear speakers to roughly 2 feet... and if you had a sub anywhere from 5 to 6 feet. this aligns the sound output, trust me it makes a big difference. if you ever give it a try...shoot me a pm and get my number...i can talk you thru it over the phone.

Must say....didn't know anything about this sort of ' tuning ' stuff till you outlined it above for me - thanks.

Once I nail down the whole comp/ subwoofer etc. stuff....I'll definitely check those adjustments out.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

i kinda addressed the tweeter mount question...but the tweeter material is something youll want to look into. most better companies either offer different speaker sets with different material tweeters for direct sound or indirect sound. if you do the mount similar to how i did then you def want silk, or something softer...(im not sure what mb uses...but its great...) diamond audio has sets that come with either silk or aluminum...etc. id just buy a set that comes with the type of tweeter you want.

I noticed some are silk/polymer composites or some other proprietary material name.

So, all other tings being equal, you'd say silk is probably the better way to go ?

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

of course there is an exception here....you could chose to do a small sub...like an 8...and run the rear speakers off the radio,

I think my HU has about 22 RMS ( less in reality i suspect ) , so would it be a good idea to find a rear fill speaker with a relatively lower RMS rating but a relatively higher sensitivity rating - i.e 92+ dB ?

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

and the fronts of 2 channels of your amp, and bridge the other two channels of your amp to run your sub (a decent 8 usually only need 125 to 150 rms at most) so in that case you only need a 4 channel set...but the price difference is negligible when you shop around online....so i say just get the 6 channel and you never have to worry about goin thru the pain in the ass running of rcas in a nb again.

Since I have the Kenwood 4 channel amp now, I thought the same way about having this as an option - i.e have the amp run the front comps and the sub....and have the HU run the rear fill speakers

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

clipping has to do with the sinusoidal wave. for clean sound you want a smooth wave that goes up and down smoothly...almost like how youd see a heart monitor look. but smoother. any flat parts of the wave is clipping....that wave that goes up and down....and looks like a u connected to an upsidedown u, and so on....is the carrier wave...then the signal wave(what the speaker plays) is on that wave. its all a bit technical...but if the amp is underpowered...or the signal wave is being pushed to hard (the gain is turned up to much) then you get distortion. imagine if you went and turned your radio all the way up...the sound get distorted...moreso because the signal is clipping and the speaker cant play a wave correctly unless its smooth. if there are flat parts of the wave...aka clipped parts...then the speaker usually will sound bad and burn up the voicecoil. so again. dont over do matching rms numbers....find a speaker you like, or a speaker that everyone recommends...get it, do your best to get a good signal via good rcas and good power wire to the amp...and let someone adjust the gain so you dont get a clipped signal to them...and they will sound good.

Great explanation...thanks again for the detail.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

id say look for any speaker you like that requires anywhere from 60 watts rms to 125 watts rms....the gain will be turned up more for a higher power speaker unless its clipping.

jls are great, but youll pay for them...just like focals.

polks are good....but not made by polk anymore...directed bought them. they are a good company, but you wont spend much more to get a definetly better speaker.

alpine used to be fantastic....but when best buy started carrying them their production was pushed and the quality of the product build itself suffered in my opion. the do make great stuff. but if im buying online, and i dont want to worry about getting a bummed pair. i wouldnt buy alpine. again youll slighly over pay for these. i only recommnd type r or better.

there is nothing wrong with clarions or kenwoods either, i just think you can do better and not really spend any more.

check out mb quart pvi 216, i think.
check out the pioneer tsc and tsd series
check out boston
check out diamond audio (best speakers ive ever heard)
ive heard good things about re audio too, and a million different other brands...

just get some suggestions, then realize there is a million different options, try to get suggestions from peopel who have similar taste in good sound.

only you know what you want to spend, all i can say is i got a 500 dollar pair of speakers for 140 bucks, so y buy a 100 dollar pair of speakers for 100, when you can get savings like that.

i also bought a 800 dollar amp for 220. its all a matter of your patience and ability to find good deals.

i like jl, but i hate getting what everyone else wants...i like to get the stuff no one knows about, so in my opion, get diamond audio or mb quart....few people on the street know about em, you can get em much cheaper online, and they are good good stuff.

and brands like eclipse and alpine, while they are good, aret what they once were, and stand on there old reputation...not current quality...althou they are still good, and youd probably be happy with them, even thou youd probaby get a set of diamonds for the same price.

sorry again for all the typos....not even gonna proof read this one...hope it all makes sense....let me know what else i can help with..or clear up. haha

good luck

Gotta head out....I'll respond to the details you provided ( above ) on speakers in a separate post shortly.

Thanks again for the detailed reply.

[terranova]

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

id say look for any speaker you like that requires anywhere from 60 watts rms to 125 watts rms....the gain will be turned up more for a higher power speaker unless its clipping.

jls are great, but youll pay for them...just like focals.

First, thanks again for introducing a number of other speaker options for me to consider instead of the Focals.

I was in an audio shop a while ago with a friend ( who eventually got Focals )and they played some songs off his USB flash with the intro Focal line ( Focal 165 A1 I think ) running off an amp and the sound was just incredible compared to some other speakers in the shop ( actually, i think they had JL speakers as well ...though I'm not sure if we heard those )...especially the bass that was coming from the Focals. This was when I first got seduced by Focals as well as the prospect of perhaps going with Focal comps in the front and only rear fills in the back running off my 100w amp - no sub ( as i was impressed with the bass from the Focal comps ). Of course my amp is 100w RMS and the 165s are 60 w RMS and the mount depth is a bit deeper, so I had some doubts. But all that aside, based on your comments, it seems that I can get the same ' bang for the buck ' - performance wise - from cheaper speakers than Focals ...and I'm all for that.

btw, on the topic of trying to get a decent bass response from comps.

How important is the lower end of the frequency range - i.e 35-25,000 Hz - when evaluation the bass response potential of a comp speaker in your view ?

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

polks are good....but not made by polk anymore...directed bought them. they are a good company, but you wont spend much more to get a definetly better speaker.

I must say, I'm becoming very intrigued by the prospect of the Polks.

Specifically, the....

Polk Audio MMC6500 Comps ( unless they're discontinued )

RMS: 125 watts
Sens: 90 dB
Range: 43-25,000 Hz
Depth: 2 1/2"

Or the,

Polk Audio db6501 Comps

RMS: 100 watts
Sens: 92 dB
Range: 35-25,000 Hz
Depth: 1 11/16"

The reviews I've read on both these are generally very good.

The db6501s would almost seem to be a perfect solution given the 100 RMS matches up with the amp, the frequency low end of 35 should deliver some relatively decent bass and the mounting depth of 1 11/16" is well below the 2.5" Beetle spec.

And, Polks could do a rear fill as well, with.....

Polk Audio db651

RMS: 60 watts
Sens: 92 dB
Range: 35-22,000 Hz
Depth: 1 11/16"

If i did go with the sub, these could run off the HU. Not sure if ' marine certified ' means the materials used in the build quality of Polks is better or worse than say JL or Focal etc. ...but a lot of folks certainly seem to like them.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

alpine used to be fantastic....but when best buy started carrying them their production was pushed and the quality of the product build itself suffered in my opion. the do make great stuff. but if im buying online, and i dont want to worry about getting a bummed pair. i wouldnt buy alpine. again youll slighly over pay for these. i only recommnd type r or better.

Actually, I think it was the R series I was reading about...

Alpine SPR-17S

RMS: 110 watts
Sens: 87 dB
Range: 65-27,000 Hz
Depth: 2 3/8 "

The RMS certainly isn't a problem, the low end frequency is a bit higher than the Polks and the mounting depth just a bit over 2.5" - but I've also read a bunch of good stuff about these as well.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

there is nothing wrong with clarions or kenwoods either, i just think you can do better and not really spend any more.

Not a lot of selection of Clarion comps ( only 2 6.5" comps I think ) and very few reviews around on them - but the build quality of woofers and tweeters ( silk ) seems good and specs seem in line with others..low frequency, mounting depth fits, RMS is good.

Clarion SRP1620M

RMS: 70 watts
Sens: 90 dB
Range: 28-50,000 Hz
Depth: 2 1/2 "

Kenwood seems to have a bigger selections though it seems the reviews are a bit hit and miss.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

check out mb quart pvi 216, i think.

A lot of people like these as well

MB Quart Premium PVI216 6.5"

RMS: 70 watts
Sens: 87 dB
Range: 38-32,000 Hz
Depth: 2 1/2 "

Though I noticed that they come with 1.5" tweeters - where as most others are 3/4" or 1 " ....not sure if that'd pose a problem or not.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

check out the pioneer tsc and tsd series

I see these discussed A LOT......

Pioneer Premier 6.5" TS-C720PRS

RMS: 60 watts
Sens: 88 dB
Range: 30-33,000 Hz
Depth: 2 1/2 "

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

check out boston

Probably.....

Boston Acoustics SC60

RMS: 65 watts
Sens: 90 dB
Range: 55-20,000 Hz
Depth: 2 1/2 "

or.....

Boston Acoustics SL60

RMS: 80 watts
Sens: 90 dB
Range: 45-22,000 Hz
Depth: 2 7/16 "

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

check out diamond audio (best speakers ive ever heard)

Something like.....

Diamond Audio D662s

RMS: 75 watts
Sens: 87 dB
Range: 45-22,000 Hz
Depth: 2.32 "

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

ive heard good things about re audio too, and a million different other brands...

And DLS, Rainbow, Hertz etc. etc......too many to choose from

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

just get some suggestions, then realize there is a million different options, try to get suggestions from peopel who have similar taste in good sound.

Will do...and I'm going to visit a lot more audio shops as well.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

only you know what you want to spend, all i can say is i got a 500 dollar pair of speakers for 140 bucks, so y buy a 100 dollar pair of speakers for 100, when you can get savings like that.

i also bought a 800 dollar amp for 220. its all a matter of your patience and ability to find good deals.

It'd be good if i could keep the comps in the $200 - $250 range +/- ( the lower the better of course )

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

i like jl, but i hate getting what everyone else wants

Guess I'd be looking at the JL TR 650-CSi or C2-650 ....the JL C5 650 are a bit pricey.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

...i like to get the stuff no one knows about, so in my opion, get diamond audio or mb quart....few people on the street know about em, you can get em much cheaper online, and they are good good stuff.

and brands like eclipse and alpine, while they are good, aret what they once were, and stand on there old reputation...not current quality...althou they are still good, and youd probably be happy with them, even thou youd probaby get a set of diamonds for the same price.

sorry again for all the typos....not even gonna proof read this one...hope it all makes sense....let me know what else i can help with..or clear up. haha good luck

Looking at the 9 speakers I listed above, if you had to rank the top 5 ( or Top 3 if it's easier ) in your order of preference, what would be #1 ....#5 in your view ?

[sean_fabanich]

ok.

youve done some decent research it seems.

first...like i said a long time ago...its very difficult and probably not worth the effort to get the bass response from the frotn and rear speakers because there is really no sealed compartment for the speaker to resonate from. if you had a silverado or a titan then id say you probably could get the bass you want from just 6.5s on an amp...but given the lack of speaker "box" for the speakres and the high road noise we have in the beetle....i dont think youll ever get what you want unless you make considerable changes to the doors and rear panels.

so definetly plan on doing a sub. (unless you dont like full range sound) an 8 would produce excellent fill bass...and produce perfect sound if you listen to everything(might not drive a few low notes found in hip hop)....not alot of kick...but great sound....im partial to tens....even if i had a trunk of a 67 continental to fil id just do multiple tens...tight, responsive, and good ones can drop pretty low.

(i would however take a jlw7 13.5 inch or image dynamics idmax 12) but would never spend retail on them....so like i said id never get bigger then a 10....

12s are usually a bit sloppy compared to a 10...but can very tight if they are good....yet will take a ton of room and power. and 15s are just not an option unless you dont want a trunk

one diamond audio 10 d3 or d6 would in a diamond audio spec vented box would blow your mind....but take up half your trunk....

anyways...the sub size has to do with your personal preferenxce.

you can get an re audio 8 that will fire in a .35 cubic foot box....so you get full range sound in a shoe box. or you can get a good 10 that will work in a sealed .75 box... it all comes down to want you want...and what your willing to spend. and what room your willing to surrender.

so when you take suggestions from people....try to get a handle on there listening preference...i have freinds that love memphis....and while it gets retarded loud...it just doesnt play all the notes....or fill properly to me....i like to be able to throw on the any type of music and rock it....sure my 8 doesnt bump...but it does sound pretty nice....and if i had more trunk space id no doubt have a diamond d6 10 in the diamond spec vented box....roughly 1.5 cubes total....but sound tighther then most subs....and can shake you better then two average 12s that most people have....

anyways. polks are good speakers....ive liked them for a long time...however there quality of crossover isnt the same as youd find in a good diamond audio, imagedynamic, focal, or mb quart set up. so youd probably get some harsh sound from the tweeters no matter what. thats one reason i went with the mbs. like you said the tweeter is much bigger...if you look at the pics i posted in that tweeter placement post youll see what i did. and because they are so big they can play a lower freq of music then most tweeters...which helps blend the sound from tweeters above the dash to the the midrange down in the door.

if you have to put them in the factory location then they wont work unless you cut the panels up to make them fit...so go with something smaller if your unwilling to do an install like i did.

i also put components all the way around....i did mount the rear tweeters as coaxials thou.....but still used the crossover. sure i dont get the power to the rear that the fronts get.....but thats ok...cause i dont try to get non directional freqs from my speakers (sub 80hz) i let the sub cover them...thats what its for...and i usually cut the sub at the highest at about 70hz. when time aligned they blend perfectly.

so as far as your question about freq response for door speakers....as long as they cover down to 70 or 80 hrz then your fine...you wont get lower response then that in the beetle anyways...at least to your liking...so we set the highpass filter (hpf) on the radio or amp at at least 80 hz...and set the lowpass filter (lpf) for the sub at 70...so....the sub plays from 10 or 20 or 30 hz up to 70 hrz (all non directional sound) and the speakres play from 80 or 100 hz up....

when you tune a system the front speakres should be the dominat speaker...the rears are just loud enough to notice them if they go out....so being that the rears are closer to our heads...by half the distance...and the enclosure in the rear door panels are slighlty more sealed....you probably only need half the power to them. if that.

i wouldnt do the polks cause i know i wouldnt like the perfomance of the crossover and the brightness you would probably get from the tweeter. no matter what they are made of.

heres my suggestion...if you follow it i can guarentee you wont be unhappy....

keep your four channel. get a pair of rcas....either four or 6 channel set (dont think you can get a pair of 4s and then add a set of 2s later...cause youll get noise...) do an all in one set.

power it well...use 4 gauge, and get a small cap...i really love the performance of monster caps...but any will do...all you should need is .5 farad, but if you get another brand do a bigger one...1.5 to 5 farad. this will help save your alternator and batter.

buy two sets of these, mount the front set midrange in the door (use 3/4 inch mdf spacer) and then surface mount the tweeter in the dash just like i did. tweeter, front speaker placement.

in the rear youll need the mdf spacers too...attach it to the aluminum speaker mount....tightening it slowly so as not to bend the spacer...if you over tighten one part it will flex and in turn will probably flex the speaker...making it soudn blown. then after you attach the spacer...attach the speaker...mount the tweeter in the speaker.

get someone that knows what they are doing to tune it...or get my number and call me and i can help you tune it decently yourself.

afgter you get that in...youll be able to see for your self if you get enough bass or not from the speakers....again hearing it sit still will impress you...but go out on the highway and youll be less impressed im sure...at least if you have similar taste to me...at this point youll decide to add an 8 or a 10

that jl 8 would probably sound awesome.

but if you want to bump and feel it a bit then youll wanna do a ten...the type of box will depend on the sub....but i can promise you cant find a 10 that will do what a d3 ten in the proper box with the power you have to give it off two bridged channels. but it might be pushing that power wise...so maybe finding an 8 that will match your power availability better would be wise.


back to what you asked thou....

i wouldnt get the alpines, clarions, kenwoods, or polks.

id consider the polks if the price was too good to pass up...but none of the others.

and with the rest, id probably say its a tie between the mb quarts, pioneer tscs, bostons, and diamonds.


id give the edge to mb for the perfromance of the tweeter, but a good set of diamonds probably will outperfrom them...it just comes down to price.

i guess id say 1a diamond, 1b image dynamics, 1c mb quart, 1d pioneer tsc, and then 1e bostons...

basically go with what you get the best deal on.

i dont think you can find a better deal then what i linked earlier.

and i promise you wont be unhappy with them once you have them installed. then again im sure youd be happy with any of them 1a -1e.

so really you just have to pull the trigger.

like i said looking for speakers that have the lowest freq response isnt imporntat...cause you shouldnt be using them to play those freqs anyways.

and the rear speakers will be turned to about 30 percent of the volume of the front....just for staging reasons....so dont worry so much with rms matching to your amp...every company skews there numbers anyways, so it very difficult to match. your amp should be powerful enough to run just about any set of components. and your headunit can produce enough power to play the rears( to be hoenst you dont even have to change your rears if you wanna save some money (i bet eventually you do, but you wont be cranking them...so its really not that essential))

finding the sub size you want that will produce the bass you want will probably be the hardest chore. so know what you want and ill be happy to help you figure it out. hope i answered your questions.

[terranova]

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

ok.

youve done some decent research it seems.

first...like i said a long time ago...its very difficult and probably not worth the effort to get the bass response from the frotn and rear speakers because there is really no sealed compartment for the speaker to resonate from. if you had a silverado or a titan then id say you probably could get the bass you want from just 6.5s on an amp...but given the lack of speaker "box" for the speakres and the high road noise we have in the beetle....i dont think youll ever get what you want unless you make considerable changes to the doors and rear panels.

so definetly plan on doing a sub. (unless you dont like full range sound)

Makes sense.

I think the sub will be the way to go then.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

an 8 would produce excellent fill bass...and produce perfect sound if you listen to everything(might not drive a few low notes found in hip hop)....not alot of kick...but great sound....im partial to tens....even if i had a trunk of a 67 continental to fil id just do multiple tens...tight, responsive, and good ones can drop pretty low.

(i would however take a jlw7 13.5 inch or image dynamics idmax 12) but would never spend retail on them....so like i said id never get bigger then a 10....

12s are usually a bit sloppy compared to a 10...but can very tight if they are good....yet will take a ton of room and power. and 15s are just not an option unless you dont want a trunk

one diamond audio 10 d3 or d6 would in a diamond audio spec vented box would blow your mind....but take up half your trunk....

anyways...the sub size has to do with your personal preferenxce.

you can get an re audio 8 that will fire in a .35 cubic foot box....so you get full range sound in a shoe box. or you can get a good 10 that will work in a sealed .75 box... it all comes down to want you want...and what your willing to spend. and what room your willing to surrender.

Thanks for the tips.

I think the sub focus will be simply on - as you say - excellent fill bass & not necessarily a lot of kick.

Don't need OR WANT a lot ' whump....whump...whump ' coming from the sub in the car so that passers turn their heads when the car slowly drives by - just a decent bass barely audible to folks across the street would be ideal IMO.

I'm going to track down some 8's and 10's at some local audio shops and see how much space they really take up and how they'd suggest to have them placed - vertical or horizontal etc. And, if the sub is temporarily removable if - in the rare case - the trunk is needed for storage in a pinch.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

so when you take suggestions from people....try to get a handle on there listening preference...i have freinds that love memphis....and while it gets retarded loud...it just doesnt play all the notes....or fill properly to me....i like to be able to throw on the any type of music and rock it....sure my 8 doesnt bump...but it does sound pretty nice

And again, I think that's be my preference - noticeable decent bass response but without the ' bump ' - or ' whump ' as I call it.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

anyways. polks are good speakers....ive liked them for a long time...however there quality of crossover isnt the same as youd find in a good diamond audio, imagedynamic, focal, or mb quart set up. so youd probably get some harsh sound from the tweeters no matter what.

That's interesting, cause as I mentioned before, there are a ton of good reviews when it comes to Polks...but the subtleties of the things like cross over quality isn't mentioned to often as I recall. That cross over heads up is good to know - thanks.

In fact, I think I haven't been spending too much time thinking about crossovers and tweeters - where perhaps I should of been.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

thats one reason i went with the mbs. like you said the tweeter is much bigger...if you look at the pics i posted in that tweeter placement post youll see what i did. and because they are so big they can play a lower freq of music then most tweeters...which helps blend the sound from tweeters above the dash to the the midrange down in the door.if you have to put them in the factory location then they wont work unless you cut the panels up to make them fit...so go with something smaller if your unwilling to do an install like i did.

Actually, on your recommendation, I'm already in the process of trying to find shops in my area that might carry MB.

My preference would be to go ' stealth ' - i.e not have any tweeters or any other after grills etc. showing up in the interior to tip anybody off that there is an aftermarket system in the car - actually the Kenwood HU looks like it came with the car ( or so people have told me )

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

i also put components all the way around....i did mount the rear tweeters as coaxials thou.....but still used the crossover. sure i dont get the power to the rear that the fronts get.....but thats ok...cause i dont try to get non directional freqs from my speakers (sub 80hz) i let the sub cover them...thats what its for...and i usually cut the sub at the highest at about 70hz. when time aligned they blend perfectly.

I'm thinking of some coaxials for the rear - running off the HU I assume ?

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

so as far as your question about freq response for door speakers....as long as they cover down to 70 or 80 hrz then your fine...you wont get lower response then that in the beetle anyways...at least to your liking...so we set the highpass filter (hpf) on the radio or amp at at least 80 hz...and set the lowpass filter (lpf) for the sub at 70...so....the sub plays from 10 or 20 or 30 hz up to 70 hrz (all non directional sound) and the speakres play from 80 or 100 hz up....

Perfect...that's exactly what I wanted to know ...thanks.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

when you tune a system the front speakres should be the dominat speaker...the rears are just loud enough to notice them if they go out....so being that the rears are closer to our heads...by half the distance...and the enclosure in the rear door panels are slighlty more sealed....you probably only need half the power to them. if that.

Again, I assume that the HU power is enough for the rear speakers since the 4 channel will power the front comps and bridge to power the sub ?

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

i wouldnt do the polks cause i know i wouldnt like the perfomance of the crossover and the brightness you would probably get from the tweeter. no matter what they are made of.

Again, you don't get that sort of commentary in the bulk of Polk's reviews I've read ...that's good to know...thanks again.

So much for Polk as a contender I guess !

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

heres my suggestion...if you follow it i can guarentee you wont be unhappy....

That's what I'm shooting for - thanks !

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

keep your four channel. get a pair of rcas....either four or 6 channel set (dont think you can get a pair of 4s and then add a set of 2s later...cause youll get noise...) do an all in one set.

power it well...use 4 gauge, and get a small cap...i really love the performance of monster caps...but any will do...all you should need is .5 farad, but if you get another brand do a bigger one...1.5 to 5 farad. this will help save your alternator and batter.

buy two sets of these, mount the front set midrange in the door (use 3/4 inch mdf spacer) and then surface mount the tweeter in the dash just like i did. tweeter, front speaker placement.

I've made notes on all your points.

Not familiar with ' small caps ' though.....?

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

in the rear youll need the mdf spacers too...attach it to the aluminum speaker mount....tightening it slowly so as not to bend the spacer...if you over tighten one part it will flex and in turn will probably flex the speaker...making it soudn blown. then after you attach the spacer...attach the speaker...mount the tweeter in the speaker.

get someone that knows what they are doing to tune it...or get my number and call me and i can help you tune it decently yourself.

Will do .....to both.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

afgter you get that in...youll be able to see for your self if you get enough bass or not from the speakers....again hearing it sit still will impress you...but go out on the highway and youll be less impressed im sure...at least if you have similar taste to me...at this point youll decide to add an 8 or a 10

that jl 8 would probably sound awesome.

but if you want to bump and feel it a bit then youll wanna do a ten...the type of box will depend on the sub....but i can promise you cant find a 10 that will do what a d3 ten in the proper box with the power you have to give it off two bridged channels. but it might be pushing that power wise...so maybe finding an 8 that will match your power availability better would be wise.

I'm going to go to some shops and try and find and listen to as many 8's and 10's as I can to get of feel of them both- again...prefer good bass....but have no real need to bump / whump and feel it.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

back to what you asked thou....

i wouldnt get the alpines, clarions, kenwoods, or polks.

id consider the polks if the price was too good to pass up...but none of the others.

and with the rest, id probably say its a tie between the mb quarts, pioneer tscs, bostons, and diamonds.


id give the edge to mb for the perfromance of the tweeter, but a good set of diamonds probably will outperfrom them...it just comes down to price.

i guess id say 1a diamond, 1b image dynamics, 1c mb quart, 1d pioneer tsc, and then 1e bostons...

basically go with what you get the best deal on.

i dont think you can find a better deal then what i linked earlier.

and i promise you wont be unhappy with them once you have them installed. then again im sure youd be happy with any of them 1a -1e.

so really you just have to pull the trigger.

like i said looking for speakers that have the lowest freq response isnt imporntat...cause you shouldnt be using them to play those freqs anyways.

and the rear speakers will be turned to about 30 percent of the volume of the front....just for staging reasons....so dont worry so much with rms matching to your amp...every company skews there numbers anyways, so it very difficult to match. your amp should be powerful enough to run just about any set of components. and your headunit can produce enough power to play the rears( to be hoenst you dont even have to change your rears if you wanna save some money (i bet eventually you do, but you wont be cranking them...so its really not that essential))

finding the sub size you want that will produce the bass you want will probably be the hardest chore. so know what you want and ill be happy to help you figure it out. hope i answered your questions.

Gotta run...I'll respond to this last part on the comps in a separate post.

I know I sound like a broken record, but thanks again for all the time and effort you've put in putting these detailed posts together for me...I'm learning a heck of a lot about systems and you've educated me enough so that I'm going to put a lot more effort and research into coming up with a short list of all the hardware I need for the system.

Much appreciated.

[sean_fabanich]

again, no problem.

if you dont plan on doing a surface mount, as i did. its important to remember that the mb quart tweeters wont fit in the stock location without some major changing. (and like ive said i think that location stinks for the tweeters) id highly suggest finding dash panels(the same panel that i attatched my tweeter to) from a beetle that had the monsoon system....as they hvae a small speaker built into the panel. just remove that old speaker and mount the new tweeter there. it would fire up into the window and direct the sound into the car similarly to my application.and getting the wire there for the tweeter is cake.

other than that i was actually playing around with my system yesterday. pics to come shortly, ill probably post them in the sub enclosure thread on the board. almost finished with my 8 box....which brings me to my next point. finding 8s in store, let alone hooked up to play will be a tough find. i dont think ive ever found an 8 at any car stereo shoppe hooked up....except for maybe one. so reviews will come in handy. ultimately an install similar to mine would be ideal for an 8. a sealed 8 box integrated into the rear deck of the car. its removable too....just undo the speaker leads. then again any sub would be removable as long as you dont mount the amp or cap to the box. if you dont want to get into integrating the 8 into that rear deck...then id suggest an 8 in ported box. like the jl. diamond audio makes a d3 8...its hard to find, but diamonds shine in vented enclosures. what is the model number of your amp? id like to see the power specs to help suggest other speakers.

oh...and a cap...is a capacitor. most people dont bother with them. but most people dont realize the draw of power an amp can have on the electrical system. caps are tough to decide on cause different brands just have different quality material. i have a 5 farad tsunami cap and the lights dim more with it then when i borrowed my freinds .5 farad monster cap. thats y i recommend the monster cap...and youll see if you research that its tough to find a cheap price on a monster cap. i used to believe in just getting a really good battery. like a optima red or yellow top, but their quality has recently suffered as well. so im a believer in a cap. it can be placed in the rear bumper to get it out of the way too. then mount the amp to the rear of the back seat...and your good to go.

[terranova]

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

back to what you asked thou....

i wouldnt get the alpines, clarions, kenwoods, or polks.

id consider the polks if the price was too good to pass up...but none of the others.

When I first started this research on speakers, of those 4 you mentioned above, it was probably the Polks and Alpines ( R- series ) that drew most of my casual interest...primarily due to the fact they both seemed ( at least based on the reviews I'd read ) to deliver some big and clear sound and the fact both were rated at 100w RMS. Of course now, I realize that my range of wRMS choices is much wider and that the crossover / tweeter performance is just as important ( if not more ) a consideration in narrowing down my choices.

btw - speaking of choices, based on my rough notes ...so far I've looked at ( on-line ) about 14 different manufacturers of speakers and 22 different 6.5" component sets of various specs ( i.e w RMS ) - amazing the number of choices out there.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

and with the rest, id probably say its a tie between the mb quarts, pioneer tscs, bostons, and diamonds.

You mentioned JL Audio earlier - I assume they would be a consideration as well ?

Any thoughts on JBL or Hertz ?

I ask cause 2 shops relatively close to me carry those brands.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

id give the edge to mb for the perfromance of the tweeter, but a good set of diamonds probably will outperfrom them...it just comes down to price.

Overall...or just in terms of tweeter performance ?

On the Diamonds...I'm really keen on seeing the Diamond Audio D662(silks )as they may be a perfect solution....though according to their website there are only 3 dealers in my entire province ....although 1 of them isn't too far away.

It is odd, that if the quality and performance of Diamonds is so good, why they don't have more dealers carrying them...especially if they match up well against lines like Focals.

Either way, I'm definitely going to try and track the Diamonds down....ditto for the MB Quarts.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

i guess id say 1a diamond, 1b image dynamics, 1c mb quart, 1d pioneer tsc, and then 1e bostons...

basically go with what you get the best deal on.

i dont think you can find a better deal then what i linked earlier.

and i promise you wont be unhappy with them once you have them installed. then again im sure youd be happy with any of them 1a -1e.

so really you just have to pull the trigger.

I know....there comes point in time when you have to fish or cut bait and break away from endless speaker ' analysis paralysis '
.

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

like i said looking for speakers that have the lowest freq response isnt imporntat...cause you shouldnt be using them to play those freqs anyways.

and the rear speakers will be turned to about 30 percent of the volume of the front....just for staging reasons....so dont worry so much with rms matching to your amp...every company skews there numbers anyways, so it very difficult to match. your amp should be powerful enough to run just about any set of components. and your headunit can produce enough power to play the rears( to be hoenst you dont even have to change your rears if you wanna save some money (i bet eventually you do, but you wont be cranking them...so its really not that essential))

Frankly, I would tend to agree ......I think if it's comps / sub as a priority ...then the rears may be just a ' nice to have ' option...better to allocate the $ to the comps and sub.

On the topic of $ and budget.

I've noticed a lot of sites on-line like amazon, Crutchfield, pacific stereo, woofers etc, sonic, onlinestereo, e-bay retailers etc. are selling all the brands we've been discussing for substantially less $ than some I've seen in some shops.

I've read that some of these sites aren't authorized dealers and that they may be selling bogus or defective product - I assume the best option in terms of finding the lowest prices for an authentic product is to go with an authorized on-line dealer or is e-bay ( for example ) just as safe an alternative in your view ?

Originally Posted by sean_fabanich

finding the sub size you want that will produce the bass you want will probably be the hardest chore. so know what you want and ill be happy to help you figure it out. hope i answered your questions.

i suspect you're right....so I'd like to nail down my comp selection and get that out of the way and then move on to thinking about subs.