Rough starting problems.. again...

[Oh Randi]

I'm terrible at describing things so I FINALLY got a video of what is going on. (Normally every time I grab my camera the car behaves and starts right up.)

So I think this is a fuel-related problem. I'm crossing my fingers it isn't the fuel pump. The hard starts are very random. The only consistency is that is usually happens after the car has been sitting overnight. I took this video after it had been sitting for maybe 4 hours. My camera ran out of memory and stopped recording, but it did start after a few more tries. It almost stumbles (for lack of a better word) for MAYBE a second before the rpms jump up to normal and it's fine.

What I know: The battery has been tested several times. Bench tested and I used a multimeter to test it. Given that it always eventually starts, I don't think it is battery related as I would think repeated tries to start it would result in it draining the battery and it wouldn't start.

I also know I can hear the fuel pump prime when I open the door, and also when I turn the key.
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I'm trying an experiment to see if it matters how much gas I have in the car when it happens.This is what I did today:

this morning (when I had 1/4 of a tank left), I tried to go to a gas station about a mile away for a drink. (It had been sitting overnight)

Leaving the house, it had trouble starting. Got it started after maybe 4 tries. Drove to said gas station. Went inside for a drink.

it acted like it didn't want to start when I went to head home. But, it just cranked really slow and started. (as in, no sputtering and dying, just slow to start.. starter? crank position sensor?)anyway, went home.

4 hours later(still only have 1/4 tank left), I brought my camera and made this video. Took maybe 7 or 8 tries to start. Went to the same gas station a mile away, filled it up to a little over 1/2 a tank. It started up just fine, no hesitation. Gosh I hope it isn't the fuel pump...

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A month or so ago, it would always start on the second try. Now it takes anywhere from 3 to 10 tries when it happens. I'll try and get a better video tomorrow. I'll grab my bentley and see if I can't check fuel pressure tomorrow..

Anyone have any other ideas? I was thinking fuel related because I'm not throwing any codes (except for my cat and purge valve). I'll double check the codes tomorrow and see if anything new has come up. But I don't have any other ideas.


Here's the video!!!



oh, and i forgot an important detail, it never has problems once it is started. it does feel sluggish when it warms up though...

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Do I have you confused with someone else who was going to change the fuel tank, and then because of what was involved, didn't?

Forget the battery, not the problem.

It sounds either starter related, the starter has to be bench tested. I have read of problems where the starter speed, while cranking, was too slow and caused start problems.

Or fuel delivery related - fuel pump, pump relay (yes, I heard you say it was clicking), pick-up issues in the tank (water and/or sediment), fuel filter, fuel rail leakage, injector seal leakage. None diagnosable with Vag equipment. But diagnosable.
http://newbeetle.org/forums/attachme...thru-20-13.pdf

M.

[IndyTom]

I would have said "starter" until I listened to the video. That sputtering sounds like it isn't getting enough fuel at start up. Somehow it seems that by trying to start the car multiple times the fuel system keeps on priming until it finally starts. My guess would be the fuel pump or clogged fuel filter or pick up tube.
Keep us posted. I am very interested on what the actual cause is. Good Luck with your diagnosis.

[D2Beetle]

Originally Posted by IndyTom

I would have said "starter" until I listened to the video. That sputtering sounds like it isn't getting enough fuel at start up. Somehow it seems that by trying to start the car multiple times the fuel system keeps on priming until it finally starts. My guess would be the fuel pump or clogged fuel filter or pick up tube.
Keep us posted. I am very interested on what the actual cause is. Good Luck with your diagnosis.

I agree, but it might not be totally fuel related; getting is scanned may yield another to clue to the problem.

[Oh Randi]

I have the full ross tech software. Its not throwing codes for anything. Ill double check later.

[Bratgirl]

Oh Oh, I might know the answer to this one. DaZee had the same problem and symptoms when I first got her. Hard to start first thing in the morning, started fine for the rest of the day. Thought it was a fuel pressure related problem. My VW shop kept her overnight and tested to see if she was losing pressure. Nope. Not it. But what they did figure out was...the coolant temperature sensor was faulty, causing the automatic choke to malfunction. $60 for parts and labor To change the sensor, and she's starting fine, no more issues!

Part no. Water temp sensor. 059919601A
Part no. O-ring for temp sensor. N90316802

Hope this helps
Barb

[Oh Randi]

Lol $60?? You basically walked in there and bent over the counter. That's way too much. but I replaced mine maybe a few months ago. I don't think that's it.

[IndyTom]

Originally Posted by Bratgirl

Oh Oh, I might know the answer to this one. DaZee had the same problem and symptoms when I first got her. Hard to start first thing in the morning, started fine for the rest of the day. Thought it was a fuel pressure related problem. My VW shop kept her overnight and tested to see if she was losing pressure. Nope. Not it. But what they did figure out was...the coolant temperature sensor was faulty, causing the automatic choke to malfunction. $60 for parts and labor To change the sensor, and she's starting fine, no more issues!

Part no. Water temp sensor. 059919601A
Part no. O-ring for temp sensor. N90316802

Hope this helps
Barb

WOW. That's the dealership for ya. 60 bucks for parts that only cost less than 18 including O-Ring and new clip and 2 minutes labor to install a coolant sensor.
Volkswagen New Beetle 1.8T > Search > Coolant Sensor > ES#264174 Coolant Temperature Sensor With O-Ring & Clip - 078919501CKT

[Bratgirl]

Oops my bad. It wasn't $60 for just the sensor, I forgot they replaced my horns that weren't working and one headlight also. And it was not at the dealership. They are way to pricey on anything.

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Originally Posted by Oh Randi

Lol $60?? You basically walked in there and bent over the counter. That's way too much.

That's funny Randi, more so coming from a girl!

Originally Posted by Bratgirl

Oops my bad. It wasn't $60 for just the sensor, I forgot they replaced my horns that weren't working and one headlight also. And it was not at the dealership. They are way to pricey on anything.

You go girl, go catch on the possible cause, and all that for $60, you did just fine!

Originally Posted by Oh Randi

I have the full ross tech software. Its not throwing codes for anything. Ill double check later.

As said, fuel delivery issue (or possible starter), no codes. You never answered my question, that was you, going to replace your fuel tank, what happened with that?

[Krash]

You definitely have some electrical issues going on, it may just be a low battery from numerous attempts at starting, but your battery / starter is laboring at turning the engine over. it should crank / spin the engine over easier.

What I notice when I watch and listen to your video is that the sound of the starter is laboring to turn the engine over and it is not at a steady rate. Also if you look at the battery light about the 10 o'clock position you will notice that it flashes on and off with the laboring of starting, it should stay on steady during the cranking of the engine until the engine has started and is running.

This indicates to me that you are using all of the available energy in your battery to start your car and the battery cant supply the required power needed for a good start. If you have access to a good battery charger / booster I would put a good charge on the battery or select boot on the charger and see what happens. It might not be your only issue but its definitely one of them.

Compare your video to this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vJwWI4tTkg

Krash

[Oh Randi]

Originally Posted by MyOtherRidesAVette

That's funny Randi, more so coming from a girl!

(I even censored what I originally thought lol)

You go girl, go catch on the possible cause, and all that for $60, you did just fine!


As said, fuel delivery issue (or possible starter), no codes. You never answered my question, that was you, going to replace your fuel tank, what happened with that?

I did answer you lol. I did replace it, just a few weeks later. Got it up on the lift, didn't have any major catastrophes. It fired up. But, to give a little more background, the only reason I replaced the fuel tank was for emissions and a lean code because a vacuum line broke when I got hit. The car had issues starting before the fuel tank drop because of the monsoon amp causing a drain. Hence why I've tested my battery several times. Perhaps it IS actually bad, just not completely. I don't have the money to throw parts and I promised it would never happen again. Which is why I'm getting opinions.


Right now, I think its a combination of battery and maybe a fuel problem also.

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

$hit, shame on me, after reading Krash's post, guess I need to watch your video! (lol)

[IndyTom]

Originally Posted by Oh Randi

I did answer you lol. I did replace it, just a few weeks later. Got it up on the lift, didn't have any major catastrophes. It fired up. But, to give a little more background, the only reason I replaced the fuel tank was for emissions and a lean code because a vacuum line broke when I got hit. The car had issues starting before the fuel tank drop because of the monsoon amp causing a drain. Hence why I've tested my battery several times. Perhaps it IS actually bad, just not completely. I don't have the money to throw parts and I promised it would never happen again. Which is why I'm getting opinions.


Right now, I think its a combination of battery and maybe a fuel problem also.

Oh, I thought you already replaced the battery. Hmm, so that could be the culprit as well. Those beetles do need a pretty good chunk of power from the battery to crank and start properly. Check out Advance Auto, they have a 20% off Black Friday Sale plus get a $50.00 Gift Card. May I suggest a Red Top Optima Battery. It will be the last battery you will ever need. I know the company that produces these batteries (Johnson Controls) and they are hands down the BEST dry cell batteries on the market! They will give you plenty of cranking amps in HOT or ICE COLD weather.

Advance Auto Parts: Car, Engine, Batteries, Brakes, Replacement, Performance & Accessories

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Originally Posted by IndyTom

Oh, I thought you already replaced the battery. Hmm, so that could be the culprit as well. Those beetles do need a pretty good chunk of power from the battery to crank and start properly. Check out Advance Auto, they have a 20% off Black Friday Sale plus get a $50.00 Gift Card. May I suggest a Red Top Optima Battery. It will be the last battery you will ever need. I know the company that produces these batteries (Johnson Controls) and they are hands down the BEST dry cell batteries on the market! They will give you plenty of cranking amps in HOT or ICE COLD weather.

Advance Auto Parts: Car, Engine, Batteries, Brakes, Replacement, Performance & Accessories

Thanks Tom, I need a battery, now, for the Bug, and I was debating! Sale thru tomorrow? Guess I need to check their website.

[IndyTom]

Originally Posted by MyOtherRidesAVette

Thanks Tom, I need a battery, now, for the Bug, and I was debating! Sale thru tomorrow? Guess I need to check their website.

I just checked the prices on those Optimas. WOW, they are pricey. I got mine from Costco a couple of years ago and it was only 90 bucks. Now they seem to be a lot more expensive.
Plus Advance Auto doesn't show a size for the Beetle for the Optima. I know they make them but Advance doesn't list them. Bummer.

The right size for the Beetle is the Optima Red Top 35 They run around $194.xx bucks. But I guess any battery for the Beetle will be around $134.xx or there abouts.



AutoCraft Gold Battery, Group Size 47H5, 520 CCA At Advance Auto with the Discount $109.19 minus a 12 Dollar Core charge when you return the old battery.
Part No: 47H5

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Originally Posted by IndyTom

I just checked the prices on those Optimas. WOW, they are pricey. I got mine from Costco a couple of years ago and it was only 90 bucks. Now they seem to be a lot more expensive.
Plus Advance Auto doesn't show a size for the Beetle for the Optima. I know they make them but Advance doesn't list them. Bummer.

I'm used to buying Delcos and primarily Die-Hards so I'm not sure what's pricey... I know everything has gone way up this past year. Did have to buy a battery early in the year at Advanced just to drive 30 miles to get a new alternator installed, but don't remeber what it was or what I paid, Optima rings a bell, and probably around a c note.

[Oh Randi]

Originally Posted by IndyTom

Oh, I thought you already replaced the battery. Hmm, so that could be the culprit as well. Those beetles do need a pretty good chunk of power from the battery to crank and start properly. Check out Advance Auto, they have a 20% off Black Friday Sale plus get a $50.00 Gift Card. May I suggest a Red Top Optima Battery. It will be the last battery you will ever need. I know the company that produces these batteries (Johnson Controls) and they are hands down the BEST dry cell batteries on the market! They will give you plenty of cranking amps in HOT or ICE COLD weather.

Advance Auto Parts: Car, Engine, Batteries, Brakes, Replacement, Performance & Accessories

lol my man would batter me if I went to advance. I'm only permitted to go to his place of employment, oreilly's. haha. Tomorrow I'll be taking the battery out to have it checked and charged or replaced if needed. While I have the battery out, would it be a good idea to check the starter? I have no idea what I'm looking for, but I figure since the battery will be out I think I remember reading a post about it being easier to get to the starter.

Car started up beautifully all 3 times I started it today, and I did absolutely nothing different.. I truly have no idea what is going on.

Tomorrow I'm replacing the fuel filter and cleaning the MAF and IAT sensor. Possibly the throttle body while I'm at it. Then comes an oil change. I'm preparing for making the drive to Florida in a week.

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Makes it hard to diagnose a problem when you do other things in the middle of something else, Just saying... Still need to watch your video. Sorry.

[Oh Randi]

Originally Posted by MyOtherRidesAVette

Makes it hard to diagnose a problem when you do other things in the middle of something else, Just saying... Still need to watch your video. Sorry.

I'm confused... I'm cleaning the IAT and MAF as general maintenance. I doubt they are the cause of my hard starts, I am just cleaning them because it makes me feel better, not because I think it will solve my problem.

Fuel filter is cheap and I figured it won't hurt to replace anyway since there is always the chance the gas tank I put in could've been dirty, and it could've clogged up the filter.