Ball Joint Question...

[Krash]

OK, working on replacing the lower ball joints on my 2002 Turbo S...

Bentley manual says that the three lower bolts that hold the ball joint in place are 10mm (in both the torque requirements page and the parts brake down) and to torque them to 20Nm and give an extra 1/4 turn.

Mine are defiantly 8mm, hoping / thinking this was a misprint I went by the specs and two of the three bolts stripped out...(new hardware)

Has anyone else notice this?
Are there different sizes of bolts depending on year / model? ( don't see anything the the manual regarding this)
is the manual wrong?

Thoughts...

Krash

[D2Beetle]

Perhaps the ball joints have been replaced previously? Are you the original owner?

[Krash]

Well it looks like I answered my own question... I am going to send an email to Bentley and see what they say.

Looking at VAGCAT it calls for an 8mm bolt. Standard torque for an 8mm, grade 10.9 bolt is 35Nm. I am assuming that the specs called for in the torque page exceeds the maximum for the bolt.

Item # 13

N 10127706
hexagon head bolt c/w shoulder
M8X26

Krash

[D2Beetle]

I will be reloading my Bentley DVD (drive crash Wednesday) today and I will see what it says.

[Krash]

D2,

Let me know what yours says when you get done, its in section:

Volkswagen>New Beetle>1998-2005 Suspension, Wheels, Steering 40 - Front suspension, repairing.

I-Subframe, Stabilizer bar control arms assembly overview.
Item 11 - Hex bolt

Also in Front axle, tightening torques
Control arm to ball joint

Krash

[janitz]

Originally Posted by Krash

D2,

Let me know what yours says when you get done, its in section:

Volkswagen>New Beetle>1998-2005 Suspension, Wheels, Steering 40 - Front suspension, repairing.

I-Subframe, Stabilizer bar control arms assembly overview.
Item 11 - Hex bolt

Also in Front axle, tightening torques
Control arm to ball joint

Krash

My Bentley lists those as M10 x 26 with a torque spec of 20Nm + 1/4 turn.

Where did you get the bolts that didn't work? VW, or from an online source for VW parts?

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Originally Posted by Krash

OK, working on replacing the lower ball joints on my 2002 Turbo S...

Bentley manual says that the three lower bolts that hold the ball joint in place are 10mm (in both the torque requirements page and the parts brake down) and to torque them to 20Nm and give an extra 1/4 turn.

Mine are defiantly 8mm, hoping / thinking this was a misprint I went by the specs and two of the three bolts stripped out...(new hardware)

Has anyone else notice this?
Are there different sizes of bolts depending on year / model? ( don't see anything the the manual regarding this)
is the manual wrong?

Thoughts...

Krash

No point in going to my Bentley, that seems to be handled. And I have never found the Turbo S addressed directly, with anything in the Bentley.

I'm confused. You say yours are definately 8mm, but that you attempted to use the spec'd 10mm and striped 2 of the 3. What happened with the third? I don't know how you would even get a 10mm started in an 8mm hole. Are you sure you weren't maybe trying to put a coarse thread 10mm in a fine thread 10mm hole, or visa versa? You can't go by bolt head size, they vary. When you had the existing in your hand to compare, what drove you to attempt to use a different size?

Here's a visual, significant difference between an 8mm and a 10mm, the 10mm is 25% larger in dia than the 8mm, And as to the "Bentley" M10(mm) x 26(tpi) bolt size, this is not a metric bolt size designation, "tpi" is not used with metric fasteners. -

Update - After doing some investigating, the "26" designation seems to be either a special thread (26 tpi) designation used by VW or the rough count of "tpi" for a super fine thread "M10 x 1.0" bolt. Using the attached .pdf at the bottom of the post, I printed it and counted the tpi, roughly 26. This may very well be your problem. You don't say where, or what the metric size designation is/was of the M10s you bought.
.

[D2Beetle]

Originally Posted by Krash

D2,

Let me know what yours says when you get done, its in section:

Volkswagen>New Beetle>1998-2005 Suspension, Wheels, Steering 40 - Front suspension, repairing.

I-Subframe, Stabilizer bar control arms assembly overview.
Item 11 - Hex bolt

Also in Front axle, tightening torques
Control arm to ball joint

Krash

It might be a day or two; I deactivated the software and I have the deactivation receipt, but when I reinstalled the software it will not accept my activation code, so I had to send Bentley Customer Service a help me e-mail.

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Originally Posted by D2Beetle

It might be a day or two; I deactivated the software and I have the deactivation receipt, but when I reinstalled the software it will not accept my activation code, so I had to send Bentley Customer Service a help me e-mail.

Janitz has already posted it up, nut here is a capture
.

[Krash]

To try and make things a little clearer...

All bolts are / were the same size, old ones removed and the new ones installed are both 8mm
The replacement bolts came in box with the ball joint (aftermarket) , they may have not been heat treated properly but were marked 10.9 same as the ones removed-this is the grade of the bolt.

The first bolt that stripped out - I could tell as I tightened it the extra 1/4 turn as per spec. The second one was sort of a trial to double check. Once I stripped out two I didn't need to do a third.

The bolts are 8mm x 1.25-26
8mm is the size
1.25 is the thread pitch in mm
26 is the length of the bolt in mm

I am almost positive that Bentley has them marked incorrectly in the DVD manual, as all bolts removed and received were 8mm and VAGCAT list them as 8mm also. Even checked on the 2003 NBC that my Daughter drives and they are 8mm also.

The question is, is the torque procedure listed for an 8mm bolt or 10mm bolt? At the time I was thinking that the bolt was marked incorrectly but the torque procedure was correct - now I don't think so?

This is what the mounting hardware looks like that holds the ball joint to the lower A-arm that stripped out on me - going to VW Dealer on Monday to see if they carry it in stock or have to order me a set.



Thoughts,

Krash

[MyOtherRidesAVette]

Okay, now I understand. Now I get the "26" in the Bentley designation (length), no thread designation because the nut is also being replaced so it's simply a match one to the other, whatever that might be. Looking at other connections in the chart, the 20Nm is low for a M10 and doesn't seem excessive for a M8. But since all is a kit, do we know that the OEM parts are not M10? I don't know how anyone could know if the M10, or the 20Nm, or both are misprints or typos. I would guess the only way to know for sure would be for someone to look at the OEM parts and see what they are, particularly if the holes in the ball joint will receive a M10.

Also, and forgive me for asking, since I don't know you, but are you either using a torque wrench that measures in Nm or properly converting the Nm to lb-ft or lb-in? I have to ask becasue 20 Nm is significantly less torque than 20 lb-ft.

Now, that said, I don't understand, your notation, that the standard torque for an M8 is 35Nm, which far exceeds the 20Nm before the ¼ turn, but then I haven't a clue how many additional Nm's are applied by that ¼ turn. Did they exceed this 35Nm number?

M.

[Krash]

For those interested here is a quick update:

I went to the dealer and looked at the ETKA with the parts department and the bolts are listed as 8 X 26 mm, as usual no parts in stock and had to be ordered.

Then I went over to the service department and explained my problem and asked if they could give me the torque procedure for the bolts. Unfortunately I received a quick "NO" followed by a standard reply of we can't give out that kind of information.

Also sent an email to Bentley stating what I suspected that the information regarding the bolts was incorrect. I received a reply saying that they would look into it but they had no updated information.

So my current plan is to reinstall the new hardware when it arrives and just torque the bolts to the standard 8mm torque of 35Nm or 26 Ft-Lbs.

MORAV:
No offense taken, but I am converting Nm into Ft-Lbs.
Forumla of Nm X .738 = Ft. Lbs. (35 X .738 = 25.83)

Krash