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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2012, 12:28 AM
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I'll take one with a VR6 engine please.

What many folks don't realize and what the auto industry does'nt tell you is what an astronomical price you will be paying for the replacement battery on this vehicle and any other E-car.

I have heard first hand from a Mitsubishi employee tell me basically the cost of the replacement battery for their MIEV Electric vehicle is close to the price of the vehicle. Vehicle price in the high 20's just under 30 K actually. Not only that every car manufacturer is boasting you will leave a smaller carbon footprint using an electric vehicle. Really? How much carbon does a power plant produce? In essecense you will be owning a coal powered vehicle.Not too mention you will have very limited driving distances before requiring a recharge, that is if your able to find a place to recharge your vehicle.

I'll stick with fossil fuel till they figure out how to make an affordable, reliable vehicle that runs off of electric and can go more than 100 miles before recharging.
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Oldbugman View Post
What many folks don't realize and what the auto industry does'nt tell you is what an astronomical price you will be paying for the replacement battery on this vehicle and any other E-car.

I actually agree. The electric car is already outdated...and it isn't even main-stream yet.

The Hydrogen fueled Honda FCX is (IMHO) the future of the car.

Will probably still be astronomically priced to replace the engine for years, until there's enough of them to bring the prices down.

Can't wait to make my blue ball go all orange (top gear reference)
Top Gear - Honda Clarity (Runs on Hydrogen and exhausts H2o) - YouTube
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Old 07-14-2012, 09:51 AM
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Yes electric car idea is outdated now. Sources are less and also produced carbon is more. Yes it is correct that our future is now Hydrogen fueled cars.
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Old 07-14-2012, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldbugman View Post
I'll take one with a VR6 engine please.

What many folks don't realize and what the auto industry does'nt tell you is what an astronomical price you will be paying for the replacement battery on this vehicle and any other E-car.

I have heard first hand from a Mitsubishi employee tell me basically the cost of the replacement battery for their MIEV Electric vehicle is close to the price of the vehicle. Vehicle price in the high 20's just under 30 K actually. Not only that every car manufacturer is boasting you will leave a smaller carbon footprint using an electric vehicle. Really? How much carbon does a power plant produce? In essecense you will be owning a coal powered vehicle.Not too mention you will have very limited driving distances before requiring a recharge, that is if your able to find a place to recharge your vehicle.

I'll stick with fossil fuel till they figure out how to make an affordable, reliable vehicle that runs off of electric and can go more than 100 miles before recharging.
THIS.

Thank you at last for making the point i've been saying for so long about electric cars being the worst idea ever.
Crap range, take an age to charge, no noise so unsafe, HUGE carbon footprint, massive recycling costs etc etc....

The future is already here, Hydrogen. The Clarity showed that, London already has some buses on it so it's about time the car manufacturers stopped playing around with sparks and played with gases instead.
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Old 07-14-2012, 11:05 PM
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I actually agree. The electric car is already outdated...and it isn't even main-stream yet.

The Hydrogen fueled Honda FCX is (IMHO) the future of the car.

Will probably still be astronomically priced to replace the engine for years, until there's enough of them to bring the prices down.
Isn't a hydrogen engine the same as a gas engine?
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Old 07-14-2012, 11:15 PM
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Isn't a hydrogen engine the same as a gas engine?
Read up on it.

The hydrogen is there to provide the energy to a fuel cell.
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Old 07-15-2012, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by nighttrain1974 View Post
THIS.

Thank you at last for making the point i've been saying for so long about electric cars being the worst idea ever.
Crap range, take an age to charge, no noise so unsafe, HUGE carbon footprint, massive recycling costs etc etc....

The future is already here, Hydrogen. The Clarity showed that, London already has some buses on it so it's about time the car manufacturers stopped playing around with sparks and played with gases instead.
Hydrogen isn't zero carbon either.
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Old 07-15-2012, 10:44 AM
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Hydrogen isn't zero carbon either.
It might not be but it's a damn sight better than electric.

As has been shown so many times the car can be adequate as an electric vehicle, but what's the point if you have to turn round after 50 miles?

My car has a range of roughly 300 miles depending on conditions. I know when it's about to run out there will be a outlet where i can pull in and refill with petrol, a process that takes approximately 10 minutes.
To do that in an electric vehicle you would have to charge it 3 times and it doesn't take 10 minutes.

To add to that you have the safety point of view. Not from a drivers side put the pedestrian side. Lets face it most of these cars will be used in the city. As humans we are now used to listening for the sound of an engine coming and use this as a tool to know when it's safe to cross. I personally have had to pull myself back when a Prius or similar has come round the corner. That needs to be addressed.

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Originally Posted by miffmole View Post
http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster
The Tesla Roadster has some interesting numbers for an electric automobile:
0-60 MPH 3.7 seconds
245 miles per charge
0 tailpipe emissions

Here's a 2010 review:
2010 Tesla Roadster review - YouTube
And the point when if driving at full pelt you run out of juice after 40 miles or so?? I know the Tesla goes further than that (a reputed 250 miles) but it still takes around 16!!! hours to charge. And let's not forget the price tag shall we? It's not what you would consider a real world option is it?

Last edited by nighttrain1974; 07-15-2012 at 10:55 AM..
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Old 07-15-2012, 02:43 PM
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Still 3hrs and 50 minutes longer than most people will put up with.

Until they get past that then I'm sorry but most people will just dismiss it.

Another thought as well. I live on a street in London. I am really the kind of person that is really being targeted for this kind of car.
Now here's my problem. The street where I live none of the houses have their own parking space or garage. It's rare that you can go out and come back to the same space.
So bearing that in mind and if i bought an electric car, where the hell do i plug it in? I can't really have cables dragging up and down the street as you damn well know some joker will just pull it out or cut the cables.

I hope you can see what i'm getting at here. As an idea it's great, in the real world it's not so much.
Until those real world issues get solved in a practical way then they'll never catch on.
You have the same thought if you go to somewhere for the day which is just within your range. Will there be a charge point when i get there? Will it be anywhere near where i want to go? How long will it take to charge? Will it cost me?

Because let's face facts, the cars aren't cheap. Before i shell out a LOT of money on something i like to know it will actually serve it's purpose.

Last edited by nighttrain1974; 07-15-2012 at 02:51 PM..
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Old 07-15-2012, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by miffmole View Post
You're right...the technology has a way to go to be more practical. I think the battery life will improve as time goes on.

The question is, though, will the future of automobiles be electric, or something else?
Nuclear car anyone?
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:33 PM
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So I am new to the forum, but there are a couple of things that I want to mention regarding electric vehicles.

1. EV's are not just transferring the carbon emissions from your car to a power plant and let me explain why.

Your car with an ICE is (when driven conservatively) maybe 30% efficient. The rest of the efficiency goes to losses caused by friction and heat loss from the motor.

In an EV with an Synchronous AC motor (which is what most of the auto manufacturers use I believe) the drive system is at least 80% efficient. Some drive systems are up to 88% efficient with the main losses caused by losses in the motor controller and friction.

So, an EV uses less than half the energy a regular car uses to go the same distance... thereby actually reducing the amount of carbon emissions.

2. Range

How many people actually drive more than 100 miles in a day? I agree that for an EV to be even slightly practical for an all purpose vehicle it needs a range of at least 100 miles (preferably 150-200 in fact), but for most of us that work a steady job that we commute to every day we don't drive more than 50 miles if we can help it. For this purpose an EV is well suited and is what it is more or less designed for.

Also I want to mention that with the new battery technology that is coming out the range of current lithium batteries could double making a 100 mile rage easily attainable.

3. Cost

The cost of EV's today with any kind of range is OUTRAGEOUS!
The majority of that cost is from the batteries and the motor/motor controller. Now referring to section 2 with the new batteries that are coming out that allow twice the range (because of twice the energy density in the batteries with the same manufacturing process) the batteries will basically go down in price because even though the batteries themselves will be slightly higher or even the same price, you will only need half as many batteries!

4. Charge time

Ok so it takes 4-8 hours to charge a battery pack. No one is going to sit around at a charging station and wait that long right? Again I go back to the fact that the EV is SUPPOSED to be a commuter vehicle. You drive it during the day to and from work/the store and then plug it in at night to charge (also when electricity is the least expensive). If that is not an option for you then... I don't know what to tell you.


One more thing that I want to mention. I heard a lot of talk about hydrogen being the way of the future, and if the technology becomes available that makes it efficient for us to produce and store the hydrogen it will be. But, even if that happens the cost of changing the infrastructure of the world will be huge. We are a petrol society, lets face it. And to switch to hydrogen or natural gas for our vehicles would require massive amounts of piping and replacement of infrastructure that has been built up over the last 90 years. Not an easy thing to do.

This is also where electric vehicles have an advantage. The infrastructure already exists for you to be able to charge anywhere because power lines are everywhere. All you need is a place to tap into that power source.


I also want to say that I am not some "tree hugger" that just has to get his point across. My dad was a logger and if I can I will have my red electrified beetle and my full size pickup. I just happen to be converting a car to an electric drive system for my senior project and know a little bit about EV's. I don't want to crunch any toes. I just want to clarify some facts.

Cheers!
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:36 AM
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So what you're basically saying is that use this thing for work and have a regular car for the weekends when you actually want to go further. Ok then. News flash, I already use public transport to get to work so I'm way ahead in the green stakes here. If you really want to be green then leave the car and get a bus, bike or train to work.

And all you need is a source to tap into that power. And there is the crux of the problem. My parents live 210 miles away from me. I fill my car up and I am safe in the knowledge that it will quite easily reach that. If I drive an electric vehicle I would have to plan 2 stops and a way to kill 8 hours. Can you imagine pulling into a hotel car park and seeing loads of ev all plugged in? And like places aren't going to charge for that facility.
Also we all know that batteries if not looked after properly can develop a memory where they say they're charged but really they aren't. What happens then? You go and get a new battery? Or batteries? And what will that cost? An engine for a car can be had for very little money and swapped over relatively easily by a competent amateur mechanic.
Try and plan a road trip around Europe in an electric vehicle.

These cars are just not real world practical. Out in Socal maybe where the tree huggers and celebrities live, but back in normal land it's not a possibility at all.

Tbh I'll be quite happy when the car manufacturers stop wasting time on making fancy bodied golf buggies and actually look at a proper replacement for petrol and diesel.
When they do that then the truck manufactures will take notice and start to change. Those are the real people that need to swap over.

Just one more thing. Above everything else I like my car to feel like a car. When I turn the key I want to hear something fire into life. I like my car to talk to me, communicate through the gear stick, seat and steering wheel what it's actually doing. I don't want something as soulless as a mobile phone that I get in and press the on switch.

If that happens then motoring is dead in my eyes and we all just become commuters.

Last edited by nighttrain1974; 12-12-2012 at 09:53 AM..
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:32 AM
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I tried to go in order of the questions/comments above.

Yes I am saying that for now EV's will be only a commuter vehicle. My wife and I will have our EV for going to the store and to and from work, and our Honda for when we travel 700 miles to LA to see her family. For now that is the reality. I'm glad that you take the bus to work, but where I live public transit does not reach my house or where I am going to work. I am not saying that EV's are for everyone, especially not right now, but in the future they might be.

Having a source is not a problem any EV can charge on 110 or 220. Yes it will take a long time to charge, but like I said EV's are not for everyone. Also, the range on EV's are limited, but if the new battery technology that is being touted comes to pass then a 200 mile range will be easily attainable. Mine when it is done will go 50-80 miles on the highway which means it will probably go 100 miles if just driven in town (<45mph average).

With the electronics that are being used to monitor the batteries it is not hard to tell if your batteries are developing a memory, and the equipment that is used in the vehicle to display state of charge is reliable.

Planning a road trip through Europe with an EV that has a 50 mile range is ludicrous! But planning one that has a 200-250 mile range is not so ludicrous. The distance one would want to travel in a given day is probably no more than 200 miles anyway. Unless you are just driving straight through Europe in which case it is much more enjoyable to just take a train.

I agree that the shipping industry is a major problem as far as pollution from vehicles go, but the commuter vehicles are also producing a considerable amount as well, and that is where the EV would have the most impact.

I love my dad's old chevelle, and I understand the love for the rumble that you hear when you fire it up, but EV's communicate to their drivers to, just in a different language. I get into my car and the check engine light comes on and I have no idea what is wrong. I dont speak its language. I get into one of the EV's that I have worked on and I know if it is operating properly just from taking it for a spin. Also, it is much more fun to drive a good EV than it is a regular car. Having 100% of your torque at 0rpm is great!

Cheers!
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:28 AM
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Drive no more than 200 miles in a day? I drove to Bordeaux from London easily in the day taking my time to stop off at Le Mans on the way. Sorry, but I'm still laughing at that one. 630 miles btw, average of about 70mph while travelling. 2 tanks of fuel, total refuel time probably about 30 minutes.

Here's another train of thought for you. Instead of just building a load of new vehicles to satisfy consumer demand (note I didn't say need) why don't we just learn to maintain our current vehicles properly? It's been proven on a number of occasions that having an old clunker keep going instead of turning it into landfill or beer cans is a lot greener than building a load of new electric or even hybrids.

This is my point tbh. We all look at these things and get brainwashed into thinking they're the saviour of the planet. In reality the tech isn't there yet and we take a step backward. We used to have electric milk carts about 40 years ago and nobody thought of it then, I wonder why.
We're all so caught up in trying to be green that really we're actually doing the opposite. If you want to be green then ditch the car completely. Work from home, cycle to work, live nearer where you work instead of having to do a ridiculous commute, all those things do more than running an electric car.

If VW offered to put a brand new engine in your car for a third of what a new one cost you'd do it. Imagine a 1.4tsi in your 2001 bug. Twice the economy with more power and we haven't had to build another new car. But again the manufacturers won't do that, they want to sell you a new car. Don't forget they're still out to sell these things to make money, they just like you to believe they're being nice at the same time.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:48 PM
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Ahh but when I traveled to Europe with my family we never averaged more than 200 miles in a day. We traveled from town to town and explored each one. If you are planning on traveling 630 miles in a day then of course you are going to take the car with the ICE!

True! It would be much better to simply use what we have and maintain it rather than just buying new cars every 10 years. But Mr. Real World Man, is that going to happen? You poke a lot of fun, but if you want to be a "realist" human nature and the desire for new things will win out and we will buy new cars anyway. Also, a battery pack that can go 250 miles per charge and can be discharged 3000 times before it reaches its 90% capacity mark can go 750,000 miles before you need to even think about replacing the batteries. Also the AC motors will be able to go much farther than that before they need to be replaced. So if you really think that just having a vehicle that can be maintained for a long period of time is the trick EV's could be a possibility. Most Likely the chassis will die before some of the other components.

I am not looking for EV's to be a savior for anyone. There is one savior and that is Jesus! EV's are just an alternative for when we run out of petrol. Also, electric milk carts went out because the technology was not nearly as good as it is now, and gas was near a buck a gallon. Why would you use something like batteries when you have practically an unlimited supply of petrol which had an energy density at least 50 times greater than that of a battery? Now the technology is getting better, but you are right it still is not there. However if it does get there..... who knows what could happen.

And you are totally right to think that it would be better to just work from home or ride a bike to work, but again, is that going to happen? Are we all just going to decide to build a better society by working from home and getting rid of all of our cars?

And again you are totally right! The auto manufacturers are out to make money, and probably can't be trusted. But when we run out of petrol we will have to find an alternative.

Also, I keep getting the vibe that you think I am some progressive that thinks global warming is going to destroy the planet and that we all need to commune with nature and go back to living like humans did 200 years ago. Can I say again that this is not the case? I am just a guy that happens to like electric cars.

Cheers!
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:10 PM
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I saw something else of interest its a blend between an car and a motorcycle and its electric. At the same time its something new all together.
BBC News - It will take a 'baby elephant' to knock over this bike

Cheers!
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