help me work under my car for the first time...

[manoverboard987]

ok so week after next, it's my spring break and i plan to complete a number of mods that involve jacking my car up, the biggest of which is removing the fender liner and ripping off that darned snowbox. also, replacing a fog light.

basically, i don't wanna be working and tugging on things while the car is propped up on the widowmaker (the scissor jack in the trunk, for those of you who haven't learned it's true designation yet). i plan on buying a pair of jack stands and using those as more solid support. i know quite well where the jack goes, as i've changed many a tire in my short day, but i'm lost at where to put the jack stand after the car is up.

so here's my inquiry:

- where under the car should the jack stand go? i know that it should be in the flat part on the other side of the pinch weld, right? or am i totally off... (if someone can snap a picture or has a picture of where the jack stand hits under the chassis, i'd appreciate it a lot.) should it be in front of the scissorjack point while the scissorjack is attached? or behind? and i lower the car a little on to the jack stand, right?

and part 2:

- are the 2-ton jack stands at autozone ok? or are they crap and i should go for something from sears?

thanks a bunch!

[tribangle]

Sounds like a FUN springbreak...

Here is a link on how I removed my front clip, removed the snowbox, and put in a grill. Rather overwhelming, but not reall all that bad. The picture below has your jacking point view. I did CHOCK the rear wheels when lifting the car on a floorjack. (please be careful)

Of course, I did not have a skidplate on the car, so that step is missing.

If anything is puzzling you, go ahead and ask away... it is theORG!

Good luck,
tribangle

[manoverboard987]

Originally Posted by tribangle

Sounds like a FUN springbreak...

Here is a link on how I removed my front clip, removed the snowbox, and put in a grill. Rather overwhelming, but not reall all that bad. The picture below has your jacking point view. I did CHOCK the rear wheels when lifting the car on a floorjack. (please be careful)

Of course, I did not have a skidplate on the car, so that step is missing.

heh. sure it's a fun spring break. better than doing nothing, which is my other choice. it's hard to justify that new orleans trip when it means i don't eat until june.

but thanks for the link. that has pretty much just what i need. removing the whole front fascia is a little more ambitious than what i plan on doing, though. i'm hoping i can remove the whole snorkel/snowbox with just the fender liner off. others have done it that way - so you think it would be easier? sure access is more limited in wrangling the snowbox outta there, but its less screws and less times my mom comes out saying "you had better know how to put all that back together!"

and don't worry - i'm always safe when it comes to lifting the car up. i use the e-brake, chocks, the whole sha-bang. thats another reason why i didn't wanna work on the car with just the scissorjack holding it up.

[Growler]

Tribangle,

please DO NOT put your stands in that position again.

there are FUEL LINES that are inside that member. it can EASILY be crushed.

the most appropriate place to put a jack stand on any mk4 VW in the front is just in front of the subframe mount bolt on tha actual subframe itself.(see pic1)

in the back, just use some 2x4s to spread the load on the area just inside the pinch weld (see pic2)

MOB, removing the snorkle is easy if you unbolt the bracket that supports the fender that is in your way.
the bracket is held on by a couple of 10MM nuts iirc.

however, on your model year (and mine too) to replace a foglight, you DO have to remove the front bumper and both fenders as a unit to get to the top mount screws on your foglights. (sux)

Good LUCK!

[tribangle]

Growler:
Did not know that there were fuel lines inside that rail. That is a good thing to know...

As for crushing the rail, I did not even think about it crushing. I assumed that the rail could withstand such a load, as the jackstand seemed to cradle the section pretty well.

Now I need to go and look under the car to check out these subframe jacking points.

Thanks for the imput... that is what makes this board so useful!

MOB987:
Keep us posted!

[speedie]

If you don't want to make a wood frame, you can put the jack stands under the control arm bolts (where the wood frame would go) for the front. But 2x4 length of wood cut to span the car is the way to go.
For the back, you can put them under the axle beam with no worries (I have done this for 4 years now on my 1.8t).
Position the jack on the other side of the pinch weld adjacent to the rocker panel dent (where the OEM scissor jack would attach). You do want to make sure you put a wood block between the jack "cup" and the car though.
Any 2 ton hydraulic jack and 2 ton stands will work for car, just make to inspect all of the welds.
Make sure you chock the wheels, put the car in gear, pull the parking brake, and leave the jack in place under the car in case you do have a mishap.
ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS check and double check your support before you crawl under there and start messing with things.
Good luck, have fun, and ID as much as your car parts as you can (I'm a nerd who loves to find all of the parts...helps to find failing parts and understand how the car works).

[pimpadelic]

go buy a chilton manual! seriously! if i had bought one earlier it would have saved me a lot of money and a lot of heart ache...

[manoverboard987]

Originally Posted by pimpadelic

go buy a chilton manual! seriously! if i had bought one earlier it would have saved me a lot of money and a lot of heart ache...

i've got a haynes manual, and i have yet to consult it as well. i just figured i'd get advice from people who have done it before since i could.

[pimpadelic]

yeah, it ought to have places pointed out where you can and should support your car with jacks and jack stands. i had to buy one when i first tried to change my brake pads... the rear calipre is awful... you gotta go rent a special tool... on and on and on... ugh...

[BoostedOne]

Originally Posted by Growler

Tribangle,

please DO NOT put your stands in that position again.

there are FUEL LINES that are inside that member. it can EASILY be crushed.

I guess this is a matter of opinion, but Im going to say dont worry about it.
I have been jacking VWs up at that point since the late 80s, and never managed to even DING a frame rail, much less bend it or crush it.
If you jack it by the floor pan, yah, you are going to screw up the pan. But the frame rails are like 3 times as thick and its a peice of channel. It is actually pretty sturdy.
It couldnt hurt to use the block of wood, unless the wood splits and spits out... But I dont think its necessary or even worth the hassle of trying to hold in place while easing the jack down.

Jacking up by the control arms is a bad idea! It is a peice of sheet metal pinned on each end. If you put the jack right at the end with the ball joint you will be ok, but thats really not possible. Put the jack in the middle of the arm and you can bend the arm.
On old american cars with the spring centered in the middle of the arm thats fine, but this is a different situation.

[tribangle]

Now if only we all had a hydraulic jack in the garage... this debate would be ended pretty quickly!

[BoostedOne]

Originally Posted by tribangle

Now if only we all had a hydraulic jack in the garage... this debate would be ended pretty quickly!

I got 3 hydraulic jacks in the garage... But a hydraulic lift on the other hand would be nice!

[Growler]

Originally Posted by BoostedOne

I guess this is a matter of opinion, but Im going to say dont worry about it.
I have been jacking VWs up at that point since the late 80s, and never managed to even DING a frame rail, much less bend it or crush it.
If you jack it by the floor pan, yah, you are going to screw up the pan. But the frame rails are like 3 times as thick and its a peice of channel. It is actually pretty sturdy.
It couldnt hurt to use the block of wood, unless the wood splits and spits out... But I dont think its necessary or even worth the hassle of trying to hold in place while easing the jack down.

Jacking up by the control arms is a bad idea! It is a peice of sheet metal pinned on each end. If you put the jack right at the end with the ball joint you will be ok, but thats really not possible. Put the jack in the middle of the arm and you can bend the arm.
On old american cars with the spring centered in the middle of the arm thats fine, but this is a different situation.

in the picture above the car is not supported by the control arms. I agree, do not put stands under the middle of the conrol arms, that would be bad. The wood in the picture is spanning the front subframe just in front of the bolts that mount the subframe to the chassis. this is where I place my jack stands when I support my car.

its all relative but I personally do not wish to take chances with fuel lines. YMMV

[NJ Turbo]

My Bentley manual say to jack, use a lift, or put jack stands on those exact frame rails pictured in the first picture.
So why would they show that if it's not the right place?

Can we clarify this, or am I losing my mind and read the manual wrong!?!?!

[manoverboard987]

ok everyone - everything went smoothly.

i bought a set of 2.5 ton Craftsman jack stands from Sears (just cuz i trust the name more than the 2 generic brands they had at AutoZone). plus they were on sale for $12.99.

after i jacked up the car, i looked at the frame rails in the first picture from tribangle, and determined that, after pounding on it, it sounded thicker and more sturdy (if something can sound sturdy) than any other metal jacking point, so i used those rails with no problem. my chilton manual offered no advice other than "Securely lower the car onto jack stands", so i determined that if NJ Turbo's Bentley manual said to use those rails, and a few other people said to use them, it would be ok if i did too.

anyhoo, taking the snowbox out was actually kinda fun. a pointer to anyone who has yet to remove it - it's darn near impossible to pull out without unscrewing the 2 T-30 screws that hold in the little metal bracket in its way. took me a little while to remember that i had forgotten to do that and thats why it wasnt coming out.

while i had the car jacked up on both sides, i determined that i am in need of a new set of front struts, seeing as how when the jack stands were at equal height, the passenger side front tire was off the ground, while the driver's side was still touching. (ahh - so that's why speed bumps feel about 10 feet tall.)

oh and i also determined that my undercarriage is in need of a serious de-gunking. as is my engine compartment.

thanks for all the help, everyone.

[tribangle]

manoverboard987

AWESOME!

Glad to hear that you had some FUN while working on your car.

- tribangle

[AddisVWNewBeetle]

You something about a New Orleans trip..if you ever do make that trip, I live in a suburb of Baton Rouge. Look me up!

[noR]

Heh, I use the rails too myself. Althought I used to use another spot. Both work great from what I can tell.

[iScott]

Originally Posted by manoverboard987

...my undercarriage is in need of a serious de-gunking. as is my engine compartment...

How did you go about doing this?

[manoverboard987]

Originally Posted by UFC_Champ_Scott

How did you go about doing this?

i haven't. it's still in need.

i'm thinking though a mix of pressure washing, rubbing with degreaser and steam cleaning.